Egyptian P40 scandal article

[fishface]

I have just posted this over on the Flypast forum and thought it might be of interest. I know the USA puts us to shame in this department but there are a few of us who believe we should do everything we can to give our fallen servicemen a decent burial and give closure to their families.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=120188

[The Inspector]

I have just posted this over on the Flypast forum and thought it might be of interest. I know the USA puts us to shame in this department but there are a few of us who believe we should do everything we can to give our fallen servicemen a decent burial and give closure to their families.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=120188

Very thoughtful sentiment, one small problem, where do you and 'us' reside? This forum is followed all over the world and I ASSUME you and 'us' are part of that crowd. Not trying to be cranky, but it's frustrating to read a posting that refers to a local name place that 99.999% of the rest of 'us' have never heard of and probably couldn't find with radar.

[Noha307]

The P40 Kittyhawk plane has been removed from the desert and locked in a storage crater in El Alemain.

What's a storage crater?

But seriously, come on, I thought they were better than this. At least there's the good news that the plane has been placed in storage, I had been getting worried about it. I just hope that it isn't too damaged. Any idea when it was moved? (I'm going to hell for all of this.)

[fishface]

I have just posted this over on the Flypast forum and thought it might be of interest. I know the USA puts us to shame in this department but there are a few of us who believe we should do everything we can to give our fallen servicemen a decent burial and give closure to their families.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=120188

Very thoughtful sentiment, one small problem, where do you and 'us' reside? This forum is followed all over the world and I ASSUME you and 'us' are part of that crowd. Not trying to be cranky, but it's frustrating to read a posting that refers to a local name place that 99.999% of the rest of 'us' have never heard of and probably couldn't find with radar.

I am from the UK same place as the pilot, newspaper in question, and government that cares more about the aircraft than the pilot and his family

[fishface]

The P40 Kittyhawk plane has been removed from the desert and locked in a storage crater in El Alemain.

What's a storage crater?

But seriously, come on, I thought they were better than this. At least there's the good news that the plane has been placed in storage, I had been getting worried about it. I just hope that it isn't too damaged. Any idea when it was moved? (I'm going to heck for all of this.)

Whilst i can understand the interest in the aircraft this thread is supposed to be about the pilot and his family. It is disgraceful that so much effort has been put into the recovery of the aircraft which by the way will not be coming back to the UK as the RAFM have screwed that up too, whilst no effort whatsoever has been expended on the search for the pilots remains and the family have been lied to! At the end of the day we are talking about a 24 year old man who died in the service of his country and he and his family deserve at least a little respect. Sadly so far in this instance it is sadly lacking.

[Noha307]

The P40 Kittyhawk plane has been removed from the desert and locked in a storage crater in El Alemain.

What's a storage crater?

But seriously, come on, I thought they were better than this. At least there's the good news that the plane has been placed in storage, I had been getting worried about it. I just hope that it isn't too damaged. Any idea when it was moved? (I'm going to heck for all of this.)

Whilst i can understand the interest in the aircraft this thread is supposed to be about the pilot and his family. It is disgraceful that so much effort has been put into the recovery of the aircraft which by the way will not be coming back to the UK as the RAFM have screwed that up too, whilst no effort whatsoever has been expended on the search for the pilots remains and the family have been lied to! At the end of the day we are talking about a 24 year old man who died in the service of his country and he and his family deserve at least a little respect. Sadly so far in this instance it is sadly lacking.

Yea, sorry about that, it's just that I hadn't heard any further information about the aircraft after the initial discovery. I apologize for a further derailing question but, what did the RAFM do wrong? (Send me a PM to keep it off the thread.)

To get back on track, maybe I (and probably many others) just take it for granted that human remains are handled correctly these days. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've never really given much thought to the issue because it's always been dealt with in a good manner. Therefore we never really hear about it aside from the usual note that someone is finally coming home. If there's a moral to this story, it's that this is never certain. (Although, none of this is really an excuse for what I wrote because the thread is explicitly about the pilot's remains.)

Has the MoD done anything yet to try and make things right? (By the way, do they have something similar to JPAC?)

[fishface]

Hi Noha307,
No apology required, i am as interested in seeing the P40 recovered as the next man. If you look at my website you'll see i have been active in that regard, it just should not be a bigger priority than the pilot.
To cover off the RAFM activity they basically agreed to recover the aircraft to the El Alamein museum at their own expense (apparently a sponsor on a quid pro quo agreement) apparently on the understanding that they will be gifted the aircraft at some point in the future. This (not surprisingly) has turned out not be the case. In fact the Egyptian press was reporting that the aircraft would be staying in Egypt permanently whilst they were in the desert dismantling it! Since then the RAF museum have apparently acknowledged privately that they haven't handled it very well and indeed have told the family that they are not getting the aircraft. They have also censored all communication on the subject including pressuring the flypast forum to remove the original P40 thread. this is apparently to allow negotiations to continue but it is really to avoid their embarrassment and hope that people forget about it.
With regard to the UK equivalent of JPAC we don't really have one. The nearest thing we have is the joint casualty and compassionate centre or JCCC for short. Unfortunately they do not actively search out the remains of British servicemen and only get involved if remains are uncovered by accident either in the UK or abroad. In fact our government legislated to make it an offense to disturb any wreckage in the UK without a license which JCCC issue and if there is any suspicion that human remains are present no license is issued and the site is designated a war grave. Outside of the UK obviously our government have no jurisdiction but they excerpt as much influence as they can to try to deter the recover of human remains. This whole situation came about because of the numerous aircraft crash sites containing Human remains that were being uncovered on a regular basis and there are still many servicemen unaccounted for even on our own soil. When the first of these sites was excavated the UK MOD said that it was a one off. two decades later and many excavations it was obvious that it was not. So instead of dealing with the matter properly they made it illegal for anyone to do the right thing and the government were not interested in doing it themselves. essentially they legislated to save themselves the expense and embarrassment of having to deal with the remains of servicemen. So the short answer is no we don't have anything like your JPAC and i think we are possibly the only western democracy not to actively seek to recover the very people who's sacrifice gave us our freedom.
The MOD have not contacted the family despite saying that they would to apologies. I know this because i have spoken to the family after leaving it nearly three weeks to give the MOD the chance to apologise and explain themselves. It is now over a month since it was pointed out to them what they have done and still nothing.

[Noha307]

Wow! That was fast!

Anyway, I can't believe they went as far as to try and get posts taken down off Internet forms. (We better watch out! )

I'm guilty of sending the RAFM a stern e-mail not too long after learning about the P-40. Here's the response I was sent back, it makes a lot more sense now:

Dear **********,

Thank you for your message regarding the Curtiss Kittyhawk 1A recently discovered in the Egyptian desert.

We are currently working to secure the aircraft and return it to the UK for permanent exhibition. In the interest of the aircraft’s survival it is not possible to disclose details of our plans for recovery.

Your interest in the project is greatly appreciated.

Yours sincerely,

Ian T*****
Head of Collections
Royal Air Force Museum London

I know this thread is supposed to be about the pilot, but I wanted to ask if you knew what condition the aircraft was in when it was recovered as opposed to when it was found.

[TROJANII]

Have they found the pilots remains? I thought he had taken off? If he did, he could probably be anywhere in a 20 mile radius and if it took 70'ish years to find the plane .....

[fishface]

The aircraft was in pretty good shape not too much recent damage, i will post the link the the ARIDO sight hey have pictures of the recovery .
The pilot, Flt Sgt Dennis Copping we think tried to walk out. An Italian team called ARIDO who do a great deal of historic search and recovery activity in Egypt found human remains that have been ignored by the and worse they then told the family that they were definitely not the remains of the pilot and that they had carried out tests proving that the bones were 400 years old when in fact hey have done nothing!"

[hang the expense]

Now I know why the term Bloddy Shambles came about.

[fishface]

here are some interesting links including the ARIDO website

http://www.twgpp.org/downloads/news/TWG ... r_2012.pdf

http://www.qattara.it/

they have an english version for those who don't speak italian.

[Noha307]

We have been told that an Egyptian travel agency, the same which organized trips to the P40 with prices much higher than normal market price, has obtained the authorization for the recovery of P40 and to transfer it to the museum of El Alamein, where it will be available to visitors without having to face long, uncomfortable and off-road journeys.

If I ever get my hands on those people...

Found these photos: http://www.egipska-sahara.pl/index.php?id=132&L=1#c1675
Compared to the photos of when it was first found; the left side of the engine cowling has been pulled loose, more of the cockpit instruments have been smashed, the windows are missing...I have to stop listing before I become depressed.

Anyway, thanks very much for posting the links. Now I know who I should properly credit. It took a small team of amateurs (I'm sorry, true professionals) 2 days to find what a government couldn't in a month. And they did it out of a sense of duty to the fallen - not for some self-serving reason like those above. My hat is off to them. Good job.


By the way, interesting to learn that even the story of the Polish oil exploration finding it was false.

[DaveM2]

The P-40 was recovered by people who knew what they were doing. There was at least a five page thread on this when it was ongoing. Hit the search function

But this is supposed to be about Copping.

[Noha307]

Cool. Thanks for the info, I should have searched before I asked here. I've used the search function before, but I hadn't thought of it for this topic.

Now that I'm done ranting, I'll shut up, please proceed in getting this thread back on track.