Question for you Canadians- about Harvards... others welcome

[gunnyperdue]

There is a Motorbooks hard back book titled
T-6 A Pictorial Record of the Harvard, Texan and Wirraway by Peter C. Smith.
It has some interesting photos.a
Pg 55 has a very clear shot of AJ-930 in color or colour. S/N 76-3900. It looks like the steel tube fuselage visible is silver. The shot is of 4 Harvards in flight the closest, AJ-930, is #39 on the fus side. Photo is supposed to be 1941 or so.
This book also has the row of 20+ wings I mentioned on pg 26.

Rich-

That is an excellent picture... note the absence of the radio mast, it also has RAF Roundels on the wings. The most interesting thing about that shot of the wings stacked up, to me, is that the wings with the RAF Roundels are all located in the same place, the USAAF Roundels, however, are generally located more inboard... except for a several wings where the USAAF Roundel is located at the same spot (or a little further outboard) as the RAF one.... and two of those wings appear to be NMF and not yellow... the one the fellow is leaning against appears to be yellow.... this version also appears to be a smaller roundel than the 'normal' USAAF version.... this photo and the one of AJ987/986 (on p118 Olherich/Ethell, p79 Hagedorn) form the basis of my intention to use the USAAF roundel on the repaint of AJ832... the NMF wings are a confusing factor.

As to the roll-over structure being silver... that shot of AJ930 proves it... but does that mean the rest of the birdcage is silver as well... or just what was a consistent interior color... as I said I look forward to hearing your choice, as it will guide my own.

Thanks,
gunny

[51fixer]

There is a Motorbooks hard back book titled
T-6 A Pictorial Record of the Harvard, Texan and Wirraway by Peter C. Smith.
It has some interesting photos.a
Pg 55 has a very clear shot of AJ-930 in color or colour. S/N 76-3900. It looks like the steel tube fuselage visible is silver. The shot is of 4 Harvards in flight the closest, AJ-930, is #39 on the fus side. Photo is supposed to be 1941 or so.
This book also has the row of 20+ wings I mentioned on pg 26.

Rich-

That is an excellent picture... note the absence of the radio mast, it also has RAF Roundels on the wings. The most interesting thing about that shot of the wings stacked up, to me, is that the wings with the RAF Roundels are all located in the same place, the USAAF Roundels, however, are generally located more inboard... except for a several wings where the USAAF Roundel is located at the same spot (or a little further outboard) as the RAF one.... and two of those wings appear to be NMF and not yellow... the one the fellow is leaning against appears to be yellow.... this version also appears to be a smaller roundel than the 'normal' USAAF version.... this photo and the one of AJ987/986 (on p118 Olherich/Ethell, p79 Hagedorn) form the basis of my intention to use the USAAF roundel on the repaint of AJ832... the NMF wings are a confusing factor.

As to the roll-over structure being silver... that shot of AJ930 proves it... but does that mean the rest of the birdcage is silver as well... or just what was a consistent interior color... as I said I look forward to hearing your choice, as it will guide my own.

Thanks,
gunny

Dang, Pressure.
I would believe the entire cage would be silver. If they would paint any areas different one would think they would paint the area visible to the pilots line of sight black. T-6A manual shows all parts silver or unpainted in what few photos they show. Cockpit and all seems to be this way. I assume those pics are of prototypes.
Maint book also talks of finishes for steel parts, Landing Gear, control rods, ect, as Silver Aluminized Lacquer. This would fit as a Steel Part.
As far as Insignias on Wings I wonder if Navy was different than Air Corps. Maybe they just had different folks do it different. Harry interpreted the directions a little different than Andrew. Andy did the Navy Stuff and Harry the Army.
In the Navy logs there were at least 1 wing that was changed on our SNJ. But they were also probably changed at Corpus Christi as both wings have the same build date.
Our logs also show the Horizontals were changed at least twice and also at CC during O/H.
I would believe that there was a core to an A/C and then the components you would bolt on. CC was incorporating changes and upgrades to many parts. There is a list in the back of the Logbook and also plates were riveted onto parts, wings, Horizontal, Vertical, which also lists numbers on them. These are all Navy or CC numbers so the Logbook list tells what there were.
There is an assy line shown in the Motorbooks T-6 book and all the fus looked the same from a color. I got a NOS engine mount for Andrews T-6G a few years back. It was silver with the exception of the battery area which was black and was painted on top of the silver.
Guess I got some researching to do.

[51fixer]

There is a Motorbooks hard back book titled
T-6 A Pictorial Record of the Harvard, Texan and Wirraway by Peter C. Smith.
It has some interesting photos.a
Pg 55 has a very clear shot of AJ-930 in color or colour. S/N 76-3900. It looks like the steel tube fuselage visible is silver. The shot is of 4 Harvards in flight the closest, AJ-930, is #39 on the fus side. Photo is supposed to be 1941 or so.
This book also has the row of 20+ wings I mentioned on pg 26.

Rich-

That is an excellent picture... note the absence of the radio mast, it also has RAF Roundels on the wings. The most interesting thing about that shot of the wings stacked up, to me, is that the wings with the RAF Roundels are all located in the same place, the USAAF Roundels, however, are generally located more inboard... except for a several wings where the USAAF Roundel is located at the same spot (or a little further outboard) as the RAF one.... and two of those wings appear to be NMF and not yellow... the one the fellow is leaning against appears to be yellow.... this version also appears to be a smaller roundel than the 'normal' USAAF version.... this photo and the one of AJ987/986 (on p118 Olherich/Ethell, p79 Hagedorn) form the basis of my intention to use the USAAF roundel on the repaint of AJ832... the NMF wings are a confusing factor.

As to the roll-over structure being silver... that shot of AJ930 proves it... but does that mean the rest of the birdcage is silver as well... or just what was a consistent interior color... as I said I look forward to hearing your choice, as it will guide my own.

Thanks,
gunny

The Yellow on the Navy wings from the Blueprints is from the rear edge of the leading edge skin on the bottom wrapping around and covering the top surface to the trailing edge. The entire wingtip is yellow. From the Leading edge skin aft was natural metal. They seemed to make changes in how much of the wing was painted. The print shows from the inboard edge of the Aileron out to the tip. Photos of our A/C and the wings in the book looks like it was the whole wing as well..

[rcaf_100]

Did some more digging. Looks like you guys are bang on about the silver in the cockpit. Never noticed that before...

It makes sense though...all the RCAF Harvard Mk II's built after the initial order of NA-66's (NA-75, -76 & -81) were copies of the NA-66, only ordered at a later date.
The only exceptions were the French-specified radio installation on the NA-76's and the Type B roundels on NA-75 upper wing surfaces.

Since the NA-66's were ordered just after the NA-64's which also had aluminum cockpit interiors, the specs are probably the same for finishes.
I don't have a copy of the wartime Harvard Maintenance & Repair Manual, but I do have the wartime Yale M&R Manual.

It specifies anodizing almost every aluminum surface (except electrical junction boxes and Alclad 2S, 3S, and 52S surfaces) and before assembly, apply a single coat of zinc chromate primer (yellow, not tinted) to all surfaces (aluminum and steel) "except that Alclad 2S, 3S, and 52S shall receive no primer."

That was followed by "two coats clear lacquer containing a minimum of 4 ounces aluminum paste per gallon of spraying material (30 grams per liter)"

I'll send you the pages for reference.

And in the Fletcher/MacPhail book it was noted in the caption for the photo of AJ987/986 that the USAAF roundels were on the undersides only. I imagine since the fuselage roundels were left as RAF standard, the upper wing ones were the same (can't see those from the ground, right?) Looks neat for comparison and to tell the story of the days just before Pearl Harbor.

[51fixer]

Interior Finish Specs from manuals don't always follow blueprints or as built.
Manuals have a different use and sometimes are written by folks who have little contact with the actual product, just the specs as given to them.
Sometimes there are revisions and such that the info contained is months or years different than the production time.
Check if the manual has any revision dates and the original issue date.
The closer it is to the production date of the A/C in question then the better things can match up.

[rcaf_100]

The manual is the original 1940 manual written by North American, not the RCAF. There never were any revisions that I'm aware of.
There would be original French NA-64 manuals from 1939, and this is simply an english translation of the original.

I have copies of telegrams back and forth from RCAF HQ in Ottawa and NAA requesting these manuals (and the RCAF's reaction to the cost is quite humourous). Interestingly, the RCAF brass originally didn't think that NA-64 manuals were necessary due to their 'similarity to the NA-66 Harvard'.....yeah right!

I totally agree with you about dates though. An RCAF Harvard Mk 2/2A/4 Manual from 1957 definitely is not the reference to restore AJ832 to 1941 Mk II standards.

Last edited by rcaf_100 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[rcaf_100]

Duplicate post..

[k5083]

Oh, and send me a PM with your email address and I will send you the correct font file for the serial numbers.

Rcaf_100, you have a font file for RCAF serials? I collect such fonts for decal making; could I send you my email also?

August

[gunnyperdue]

RCAF_100

Thanks a bunch... given all the variations and possibilities it is a great help to have some spec from the time to make the choice... silver (err Aluminum) looks good to me for the interior choice.

And thanks for redoing the rendering... that looks very nice as well.... now I've got to get to work<g>...

gunny

[Scott 'Gunny' Perdue]

RCAF_100

I had a hard disk crash on my computer back on 10 Oct and have not been able to recover anything after 12 Sep.... which means I lost everything that you and others have sent me on this project. Could ya'll please resend... in the highest resolution you can<g>? I'm sorry for inconvenience and Thanks a bunch!

gunny

[rcaf_100]

RCAF_100

I had a hard disk crash on my computer back on 10 Oct and have not been able to recover anything after 12 Sep.... which means I lost everything that you and others have sent me on this project. Could ya'll please resend... in the highest resolution you can<g>? I'm sorry for inconvenience and Thanks a bunch!

gunny

Email sent!

Rcaf_100, you have a font file for RCAF serials? I collect such fonts for decal making; could I send you my email also?

August

Just noticed your note August...sent me a PM with your email address and I'll fire them off.

[Scott 'Gunny' Perdue]

For those who are interested I found a very cool thing today during the wing portion of the annual.... original Trainer Yellow color and in the gear wells the green zinc was painted over with a beige color.... definitely silver in the fuselage area.

But the coolest thing was the right wing gun.... I opened the cover for the casing chute and there was this rubber screwed into the frame of the chute... and it was blackened... not from paint. I then opened the gun cover and all the bits to mount the gun are STILL THERE... no kidding, the front mount, side mount for the feed tray, the rear mount which allows you to sight the gun in left/right, up/down... and the entire casing chute seems to be there.

I'm going to try and post pictures. For the time being maybe one... email me and I'll send others... it just isn't that easy to post pics on the web so you can use them here....

gunny