Warbird Information Exchange

First of all, I found Moosehunter darned entertaining. Thank you. I don't know Mr. Goss, but have chatted with him a couple of times. He is a good soul. I was trying to figure out what Mr. M's gig is, and the best fit I could come up with is that you are a former employee. And what is this obsession with coffee?

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Rob C

Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. “

– Michael Crichton

Mr. M, I have no idea where you got your information but I will say that you insinuate quite a bit of misinformation. Normally, I wouldn't bother with a reply, but you're getting dangerously close to tarnishing a reputation that is undeserving of it. The only thing I can think of that would bring this diatribe on would be that you are actually a former employee with a bone to pick...

I've worked with GossHawk for over 25 years so I know first hand how he works. Lets address some things here first.
1. "thus their gravy-train pulled out of town" "poached projects" Yes, GossHawk relied on Champlin's work for a number of years, however, they also had other customers and did numerous restorations and maintenance for them. I worked on them so I know what was in the shop. GossHawk has actually had project poached from him, two that I know of personally, and one of those is involved in a big lawsuit because the poacher did precisely what you accuse Goss of doing.
2. "they threw several other shops under the bus" I know lots of people in the warbird business and have NEVER heard of this happening. It isn't Dave Goss's style.
3. "supplemented by volunteers" Dave did have some volunteers but one was a photographer and one helped with data, photo, and paperwork archiving, (I think..not totally sure on this one). To my knowledge, no volunteer ever worked as a mechanic on a customer aircraft.
4. "120 mile round-trip drive from north phoenix" GossHawk moved about 40 miles south of Falcon Field in Mesa to Casa Grande. As far as I know, only one employee lived in north Phoenix and he was semi-retired anyway and now has his own shop doing great Stearman restorations.
5. "only original working hand" "working the projects" He is NOT the only original working hand. All one has to do is drop by his shop and this one can be answered. He does not get as dirty as he once did because now he has a staff that he can depend on and trust, but he still gets dirty. Again, drop by the shop and you can prove this one.
6. "very limited experience in warbirds" This is just plain false. I know first-hand the answer to this one.
7. "paid at one of the lowest rates" Again, this is just plain false. I know again because I also deal with those other shops.
8. "Gosshawk use many subcontractors" Many shops do this. To my knowledge, GossHawk uses contractors for engine rebuilds, (as do other shops), some sheet metal work, and wiring (which is how I'm involved). Using me as an example, I have an substantial investment in wiring tools, wire marking equipment, and CAD systems that is not feasible for shops to invest in, unless they do as much wiring as I do. Contractors are not the evil thing you suggest. Almost every industry going uses subs in some form or another. Bill, at ATW, is a good friend of Dave Goss and was one of his contractors on a recent project.
As for the rest of your misleading diatribe, I'll make a deal with you. Sooner or later, the reasons for the "4-year Fw 190 restoration" and the pulling of the 262 will come out. When the facts are known, you make a formal apology to Dave Goss on this forum. My end of the deal is this: If you can prove I'm wrong about anything I've said, I'll note it on this same forum. Note also that my name is Jeff Nelson, because I'm not afraid of hiding behind a pseudonym like "Moosehunter". When one speaks accurately, one needn't try to be anonymous.

Let me apologize to the rest of the forum for this, but I'll not sit on my hands allowing anyone to try to denigrate anyones reputation, whether friend or not, when I know it to be patently false and utterly without merit. By the way, Moosehunter, don't try to hide from a software guy on a software driven forum. I already know who you are, but will not take the opportunity to post it here.

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Without wires, it won't work.

Good for you, Jeff Nelson, for being up front. Anonymity is the curse of the Internet. It allows any coward to say whatever he, she or it--who knows?--wishes to.

As someone who both wrenches on my airplanes and writes a lot of checks supporting my aviation and warbird addictions I have to say that Moosehunter's post was very spot on. There is a lot of dreaming and judgement by those who have not had hands on experience in warbird/ aircraft ownership. The simple fact is that an owner MUST take a business like approach to the money and time spent. Even on megabuck airplanes like Mr. Allen's. Otherwise an owner will quickly get to a point where the airplane is unsustainable to own.
Proper overhaul and operation of aircraft systems is the prime consideration when you are flying the airplane, not period accurate markings. Like moosehunter said, the owner is usually concerned with "going high and fast", safely. Even the best restored airplanes have an owner sitting in them just prior to taking the active thinking "this thing is 60+ years old and I hope it doesn't break on me..."
As far as Gosshawk I think we all can agree that some amazing things have come from there in the past and hopefully will continue to do so in the future. A&P pay is a sensitive topic but at the end of the day remember that the technician agreed to work for that salary. Most A&P's would love to work somewhere like Gosshawk for the experience and that has to be figured into the picture as well.
Mr. moosehunter I hope to see you posting here more often.

I am going to quit writing now before this turns into a JDK novel length post!!!

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All I did was press this red button here...

As far as Moosehunter's techniques for finding a good shop, I can say I've been on both sides of that deal. I don't totally agree with his methodology, but if that's the way he finds someone, it must work for him. What I find less than tasteful is his characterization of GossHawk. I know almost all the shops in AZ and work with many of them. If an "anonymous" person said these things about any of them without merit, I would be doing the same thing I am right now. It just so happens I have an extensive history with GossHawk. He and I have gone toe-to-toe at times over the years, but he is absolutely above board in his dealings with his customers. I know the entire story with FHC and GossHawk, and I am well aware of why they (FHC) don't want it out. I will say only that I won't stand by and watch ANY shop get nailed when I know they don't deserve it. And when I say something about a shop, I do it in person and not on a world-wide forum hiding behind the internet. Any shop can set the record straight when he knows who he's dealing with, and Goss has apologized to me personally when he was wrong. (The inverse has also happened, just to be fair.) But when someone makes accusations without even having the courage to use his own name, I get a little reactionary.

By the way, the definition of "sucks" is when you absolutely know the whole story but aren't allowed to tell it, even in defense of someone who doesn't deserve it.

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Without wires, it won't work.

Without taking any sides whatsoever in a discussion of something I have no personal knowledge of; I would just like to add to this statement;

"A&P pay is a sensitive topic but at the end of the day remember that the technician agreed to work for that salary."

Sometimes, in this economy, the choice between accepting a low, sometimes very low, wage and starving; is no choice at all. Just because you agreed to a wage doesn't mean that wage is fair. Just sayin...and I am most emphatically NOT talking about GossHawk. I have no knowledge at all of their wage structures.

I second the motion!!!!!!!!!!!!

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A&P/I.A., A.A.S./Aviation Maintenance technology
Warbird salvage/recovery
One day I'll get that P-40!

JMKendall,
I absolutely agree, as having been a starving A&P myself for many years. I am not advocating low pay for A&P's or warbird mechanics, if anything just the opposite.
One of my early experiences was with an P-51 owner in the georgia area who thought that mechanics should not be paid for working on his aircraft, the prestige of wrenching on a mustang was supposed to be enough reward.
Warbird A&P's have an especially tough road as they also have to compete often with Volunteers who do work for free...

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All I did was press this red button here...