Question for you Canadians- about Harvards... others welcome

JDK · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:14 am

Thanks August, now I know.

As well as gaps from order cancellations and changes, some missing serial blocks in RAF series were 'blackout blocks' to avoid serials giving the enemy a direct serial-quantity tie up of strength; did the RCAF do so?

FWIW, the RAAF system was a prefix with a number for the type, and then after a hyphen the aircraft's own number; so A16- for Hudsons, A16-123 being the aircraft's serial. It's always been 'A' something, and notably A13- was for the Link trainer... We're up to series three now.

But Australia also got scattered with ex-RAF machines during W.W.II including the Fairey Battle and Avro Anson, also wearing RAF letter-number serials.

Regards,

snj-5 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:51 am

gunnyperdue wrote:

Bela-

If you send them to me I'll post them on the WIX forum<g>....

gunny

Be happy to. PM me your email address and I'll send them along.

Bela P. Havasreti

k5083 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:42 am

JDK wrote:

As well as gaps from order cancellations and changes, some missing serial blocks in RAF series were 'blackout blocks' to avoid serials giving the enemy a direct serial-quantity tie up of strength; did the RCAF do so?

Not that I'm aware. Very few RCAF-serialled aircraft made it to operational theatres, apart from coastal patrol/defense off the Canadian coasts; few were even combat types. I don't think any great effort was made to conceal the numbers of training and utility aircraft available back in Canada, which accounted for the vast bulk of RCAF "strength". (The fearsome Avro Anson is the most-numerous-ever plane actually owned by the Canadian forces.) Canadian-made combat aircraft such as the Lancasters, Mosquitos and Helldivers were assigned serials by the customer (RAF, USN, etc.). Even the Lancs that were Canadian built, flown by RCAF squadrons in 6 Group, then returned to Canada and given to the RCAF where they served until the 1960s, never acquired RCAF serials.

August

rcaf_100 · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:13 pm

JDK wrote:

MacHarvard wrote:

Bela, all I see is the word 'image' four times. Is it me, or the forum?

No pics here, either, just the word 'image'. I *think* it may be that Bela's used a password protected URL that he can see but we can't. But that's a guess.

I was able to see them if I copied the image location into the address bar. Not sure what the deal is there...

Ken wrote:

In the color photo, I see a T-38ish red barber pole stripe around the pitot mast ...was that standard or an individual add?

Definitely an individual add-on, similar to the 'Top Hat' on the fin flash.

I forgot to mention that there's a book about 34 SFTS available if you're interested. http://www.djcarter.ca/sfts34/Default.htm
I don't have a copy to look through, but there might even be a wartime photo of AJ832 in there.

And for the sake of conversation, had AJ832 actually made it to France and didn't end up with the RAF/RCAF, it would have most likely been marked similar to the NA-64's, except the rudder would have marked "NAA 76-P2 No. 295" (or NAA 76-P3 if there was such a designation)
It also may have been finished in the French camouflage scheme by 1941 though.

gunnyperdue · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:11 pm

At the hangar today.... took some snaps with the iPhone (not the greatest... but)... quite some variation in primer.... the yellowish Zinc Chromate primer was on the empennage wall and the Flare Tube... the Bronze-green is on the forward tubes of the fuselage frame (I took off the right side panel).

Empennage Wall

Fuselage Tubes

Flare Tube

gunny

gunnyperdue · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:15 pm

At this point I think I'd like to go with RAF interior green....... I'll look in the hell-hole for guidance<g>....

gunny

gunnyperdue · **Posted:** Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:01 pm

I put Bela's jpg scans together in a pdf... can't figure out how to post a pdf here... so if you want one, send me a pm or email.

gunny

rcaf_100 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:47 pm

gunnyperdue wrote:

At this point I think I'd like to go with RAF interior green.......

Oh please say it ain't so! AFAIK that colour was only used on aircraft built in Britain.

I took a bit of artistic license and made these up to show how AJ832 would have appeared when she rolled out of the plant doors at Inglewood in 1941.

Going by measurements on our restored Harvards, the wing roundels (upper and lower) are 30", as are the underwing serial numbers.
The fuselage roundels are 24" with 9" high serial numbers and 16" wide fin flash. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

Also, not sure if you had seen this photo yet: http://www.flickr.com/photos/34076827@N00/7827471584/
Probably where the gray paint came from.

You had mentioned seeing a photo of '832 in camouflage.... was it something like this?

Oh, and send me a PM with your email address and I will send you the correct font file for the serial numbers.

:partyman:

gunnyperdue · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:37 pm

RCAF-100

Ok, I won't go RAF Interior Green<g>..... but the inside is more confusing than the outside.

The planform you did was great, I'll use it as a paint pattern..... could you do me the favor of putting in USAAF Roundels on the wings though.... I've got a picture of an AJ supposedly at Inglewood with the RAF Roundel on the fuselage and the USAAF Roundel on the wings.... cool and unusual.

That shot by Larkins is the one I saw.

Thanks!

gunny

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:35 pm

gunnyperdue wrote:

RCAF-100

Ok, I won't go RAF Interior Green<g>..... but the inside is more confusing than the outside.

The planform you did was great, I'll use it as a paint pattern..... could you do me the favor of putting in USAAF Roundels on the wings though.... I've got a picture of an AJ supposedly at Inglewood with the RAF Roundel on the fuselage and the USAAF Roundel on the wings.... cool and unusual.

That shot by Larkins is the one I saw.

Thanks!

gunny

At that time I don't believe they had an insignia on the fus for US Aircraft.
Are you doing the interior as out of the factory or in service.
I would imagine the A/C was built using the same parts and colors as US delivered A/C. They traveled down the same assembly lines and were built at the same factory from mostly the same parts.
If it was built in Canada I'm sure paints would have been different.
If it went through a reconditioning or O/H in Canada it probably got repainted,.
The SNJ-3, which is the same as a AT-6A, went through an O/H at Corpus Christi in 44. Everything was painted with a Zinc Chromate. Where it is peeling you can see the original Zinc Chromate underneath.
We are researching how this SNJ-3 would have looked when new. It appears to have a Silver Steel Tube and we are studing the books to make more determinations.

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:35 pm

gunnyperdue wrote:

RCAF-100

Ok, I won't go RAF Interior Green<g>..... but the inside is more confusing than the outside.

The planform you did was great, I'll use it as a paint pattern..... could you do me the favor of putting in USAAF Roundels on the wings though.... I've got a picture of an AJ supposedly at Inglewood with the RAF Roundel on the fuselage and the USAAF Roundel on the wings.... cool and unusual.

That shot by Larkins is the one I saw.

Thanks!

gunny

At that time I don't believe they had an insignia on the fus for US Aircraft.
Are you doing the interior as out of the factory or in service.
I would imagine the A/C was built using the same parts and colors as US delivered A/C. They traveled down the same assembly lines and were built at the same factory from mostly the same parts.
If it was built in Canada I'm sure paints would have been different.
If it went through a reconditioning or O/H in Canada it probably got repainted,.
The SNJ-3, which is the same as a AT-6A, went through an O/H at Corpus Christi in 44. Everything was painted with a Zinc Chromate. Where it is peeling you can see the original Zinc Chromate underneath.
We are researching how this SNJ-3 would have looked when new. It appears to have a Silver Steel Tube and we are studing the books to make more determinations.

gunnyperdue · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:36 pm

Rich-

Please see the first posts in this thread for the history of the aircraft... my intention is to repaint it as delivered, not in service. Zinc Chromate came in Yellow and Green.... I'd prefer some spec that I can use as a basis for paint choice.... on this aircraft there seems to be some variation in what was painted in what primer/ interior color.

thanks,
gunny

51fixer · **Posted:** Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:41 am

gunnyperdue wrote:

Rich-

Please see the first posts in this thread for the history of the aircraft... my intention is to repaint it as delivered, not in service. Zinc Chromate came in Yellow and Green.... I'd prefer some spec that I can use as a basis for paint choice.... on this aircraft there seems to be some variation in what was painted in what primer/ interior color.

thanks,
gunny

Our SNJ was built the end of Dec 1941.
Some parts were stripped and painted Imron Black or Gray. Other parts were painted over or as is from the O/H at Corpus Christi in 44 but have the orig Zinc on them, visible in spots. At least I know what the color was when this was made in Dec 41. Some pics are in the Bald Eagle Thread.
I am trying to get the paint shop next door to to zap the original paint spots to get a number to have paint mixed. They use an Aerospace version of Imron, Imron AF. They paint many Sikorsky Helos as well as other types as well as fixed wing.
This SNJ was in a training booklet which has many interior photos, in black and white. We will be analyzing them to try to determine color differential.
There is a B&W photo in a T-6 book that shows a row of wings at the factory. They are standing on the mounting flange and their are what look like Navy with part Yellow and Small US Insignia, Air Corp and British or Canadian Roundels all shown in this row of wings sitting there.

gunnyperdue · **Posted:** Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:22 pm

51fixer wrote:

gunnyperdue wrote:

Rich-

.............
gunny

Our SNJ was built the end of Dec 1941.
..................
This SNJ was in a training booklet which has many interior photos, in black and white. We will be analyzing them to try to determine color differential.
There is a B&W photo in a T-6 book that shows a row of wings at the factory. They are standing on the mounting flange and their are what look like Navy with part Yellow and Small US Insignia, Air Corp and British or Canadian Roundels all shown in this row of wings sitting there.

Rich-

I looked through your Bald Eagle thread... very good stuff.... I look forward to hearing what you settle on for the primer color. I suspect that AJ832 probably had the same color, it was made just over 2 months before yours.... I figure that the inside was the same as the rest of the line and the outside was to customer spec.... I've found a Federal Standard 595 paint chip for interior green FS 24151... can email you a digital copy of the chip if you'd like.

thanks,
gunny

51fixer · **Posted:** Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:38 pm

There is a Motorbooks hard back book titled
T-6 A Pictorial Record of the Harvard, Texan and Wirraway by Peter C. Smith.
It has some interesting photos.a
Pg 55 has a very clear shot of AJ-930 in color or colour. S/N 76-3900. It looks like the steel tube fuselage visible is silver. The shot is of 4 Harvards in flight the closest, AJ-930, is #39 on the fus side. Photo is supposed to be 1941 or so.
This book also has the row of 20+ wings I mentioned on pg 26.

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