Warbird Information Exchange

Is there a half size Martin flying boat in a museum in the Baltimore area? Was a factory proof of concept in WW2. I think.

_________________
http://www.biplanerides1.com/

The Smithsonian had a small, but smaller than 1/2 size mariner in the buildings at the Garber facility. It had a motor and props and I think it was built to test the hull on water. Not sure if it actually flew. It is probably that one.
Jerry

_________________
"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

_________________
45-47=-2

^^ Now that would be fun!

Close, but no flying boat. What we have here in the city are:

1. The "Tadpole Clipper" which was the small proof of hull for the PBM Mariner- it is powered by an early Martin 4 cylinder engine and is about the size of a Cessna 150. It is located in the Museum of Science and Industry near Fort McHenry.

2. The mockup of a Martin 130 fuselage and wing section that Disney built for a movie. This is in the GLM Museum.

3. The museum also has the original wind-tunnel model for the Mars. Sitting in a yard nearby also owned by the museum are the remains of the rear fuselage and tail of the P6M. Seamaster.

We need a flying boat in Baltimore again!

_________________
REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

Martin 162-A

US aircraft makers never adopted the small scale POC-concept like the UK did.
In the UK they had the AVRO 707 series, a smal scale Short Stirling and a few others.
Anyone know why?

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

Time for some enterprising individual to build one like the guy building the 1/2 scale B-17!

Just a guess would be the availability of the NACA large scale wind tunnels at Ames that would allow for testing models and airplanes to 50' span. The RAE tunnels at Farnborough were considerably smaller, so reduced scale POC aircraft would make more sense.

I don't think anyone ever put together a wake tank big enough, or fast enough, to test flying boat hulls, so reduced scale models there is the only way to go.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

Great answer, thanks.

RE: Flying boats and amphibs...any physics majors out there who could answer whether results from a reduced scale flying boat have to take into account the fact that water drops, waves, etc are not reduced in size?

Another reduced scale POC: the Japanese modified a Grumman Albatross into a POC for the Shin Meiwa series.

_________________
Remember the vets, the wonderful planes they flew and their sacrifices for a future many of them did not live to see.
Note political free signature.
I figure if you wanted my opinion on items unrelated to this forum, you'd ask for it.

At the Pima museum is the 'Petulant Porpoise', a Grumman Widgeon with interchangeable hull sections for hull research.

By the time you start working with large scale models, water is predictably 'scalable'. Hydrodynamics has been studied longer than aerodynamics, so there are fewer big surprises.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

A fluid is a fluid is a fluid. That ought to be scalable using Reynolds number...

The "Tadpole Clipper" is actually a 3/8th scale model of the PBM. Unlike the production variant, it has a flat tail instead of the "V" tail. Apparently, at one point, it was fitted with the V tail and then reverted back to the flat one, but no one could locate the second tail. Even though it is reported differently, the volunteer who led the restoration effort told me it is powered by a Chevrolet engine.

The volunteer that led the effort to restore the Tadpole Clipper is now one of the core guys at Jack Kosko's facility. (Gene is his first name...not sure of the last) I'm not sure, but this may have been one of the early projects Jack was involved in prior to their first TBM restoration. The crew up at Jack's referred to it simply as "the seaplane".

I saw it the first time I performed at the Museum of Industry in the late 90s. I was blown away that it was still extant.

The Tadpole Clipper is the one I was thinking of. We were at the Martin Museum and Lockheed Martin HQ this weekend with the 1911 Curtiss pusher masquerading as a 1912 Martin for the L-M centennial, and none of the museum guys knew about the little flying boat.

_________________
http://www.biplanerides1.com/

I talked to Gene today about the Tadpole Clipper when I was up at Jack's place working on the TBM (pics to follow soon!). He cleared up a few things for me:

1. The "Tadpole Clipper" is still currently owned by the NASM but on display at the Baltimore Museum of Industry. The group that restored it found it on the floor at Garber and offered to fix it up. It was restored in a warehouse on Key Highway in Baltimore near the BMI. This was Gene's first venture into restoring aircraft and did not have anything to do with Jack or the TBMs.

2. The engine was of Chevrolet design, but built by Martin. It is an air-cooled eight cylinder engine installed inverted in the aircraft.
There is ducting on top of the fuselage for cooling.

3. Wingspan is 47 feet. Keep in mind it is a 3/8ths scale model. Compare that to the full-sized TBM's wingspan of 54 feet.

4. It apparently did fly a few times as a test bed, however, it was never flown post-restoration.

5. I was correct about the different tails being attached to the plane. By the time they found evidence of the plane having the V-tail which was later incorporated into the production PBM, the restoration had already past the point where they could change the horizontal tail.

It's definitely a nifty little bird and the Baltimore Museum of Industry is a pretty cool museum to visit. It's worth the side trip for anyone venutring to the D.C. / Baltimore area.