Allison vs. Merlin

51fixer · **Posted:** Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:27 am

Edsel Ford actually agreed to build the Merlins as President of FoMoCo but Henry actually stepped in and said under no circumstances will Ford build the Merlin under whatever the agreement was. Henry had doubts that Britain would survive anyway.
Edsel actually had to go back to the US gov and say that daddy won't let us do this.
Ford was assembling Merlins in France at that time from parts supplied by RR. From the US Ford was suppling machinery and tooling for the French division to do this. They never got their act together to produce their own parts but that was the original plan. MOD and RR saw the deteriorating situation in Europe and didn't press the FRench Ford Co to do more than assemble from supplied parts.
That is why Packard built them.
I'm sure if Packard wasn't there that the need would have been fulfilled somehow. History would have been different in that case. Maybe worse, maybe better.

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11324

I think that Ford had his own aero engine aspirations which didn't work out, later to be redesigned and used as a tank engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GAA_engine

51fixer · **Posted:** Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:33 am

bdk wrote:

I think that Ford had his own aero engine aspirations which didn't work out, later to be redesigned and used as a tank engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_GAA_engine

Could be part of it.
It was the summer of 1940.
Published accounts show that Edsel secured the contract to build the Merlin. It was announced to the public even. Henry had announced that Ford wouldn't build anything for a country at war and since this contract was with the British Gov he wouldn't allow it. If it had been directly with RR then who knows. The claim of not building anything for a warring country was BS anyway as Ford companies in France and Germany were already building armaments for both sides. Ford was paid money after the war by the US gov to settle legal claims about it's facilities that were destroyed by the Allied Armies.
Another irritation to Ford Sr was that the President of GM was the head of the new War Production Board and he personally traveled to Dearborn to try to get Ford to honor the contract they had already agreed to.

airnutz · **Posted:** Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:16 pm

Mark Allen M wrote:

levier wrote:

Vlado,

You've awakened the creative writing spirit here with marvelous effect, I love it!

Brian Silcox

http://www.flightof2photography.com

I was thinking more on the lines of "You've awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with terrible resolve" :wink:

Yamamoto

Spoken in the film, "Tora!Tora!Tora!", but not in real life.

Richard Woods · **Posted:** Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:39 pm

Ford did build Merlins, as Ford of Britain; as did a number of other shadow factories in the UK. Packards efforts with the Merlin totalled about 50,000 - so not far off the 70,000 or so Allisons built. Total production of Merlins is about double that of the Allison.

The Inspector wrote:

Ford was approached BEFORE PACKARD about building the engines, IF PACKARD had gone out of business in the late 30's when the market for their huge luxury cars had all but dried up, then there might never have been anyone to build the engines

Someone else would have been found to build them, as the contract was worth a lot of money. After Ford said "No", someone else was found.. and its not as if the USA didn't have the manufacturing capability at the time - it might not have been an auto manufacturer.

The Inspector wrote:

My intent, if you take time to read it, was to point out the reliabilty of one engine over another in an extreme application. And, I'm fairly well versed in who first installed a MERLIN in a MUSTANG airframe.

My intent was to point out that your throwaway statement regarding shipping has nothing to do with reliability in a hydroplane. I'm not going to say extreme applications, as the aircraft found at Reno seem pretty extreme applications, and Merlins seem to rule the roost there.

I'm sure most people (including yourself) are well versed in where the Merlin came from and how it ended up in a Mustang, so it deosn't need going over again. I just wasn't sure if you were aware that there was an order standing for the British cobbled together Merlin version well before North American decided to make it a mass production reality. If I remember right there was also a mid engined version of the Mustang that was mocked up and then abandoned.

The Inspector wrote:

It does warm my heart to see that one, simple jesting throwaway line can get so many folks foaming at the mouth

Its always going to start a debate, and has for decades. We're not the first and won't be the last! But at least we're talking proper engines here and not that radial nonsense...

Rich

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7812

airnutz · **Posted:** Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:07 pm

Mark Allen M wrote:

airnutz wrote:

Spoken in the film, "Tora!Tora!Tora!", but not in real life.

i didn't say which Yamamoto :wink:

... I was quoting Fuji Yamamoto from the film "Godzilla" lol

But of course!

Avnut · **Joined:** Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:14 pm **Posts:** 93

Probably the best book on the Allison is "Vees for Victory!: The Story of the Allison V-1710 Aircraft Engine 1929-1948" by Daniel D. Whitney. It is a very detailed history, with even a section comparing the Allison and Merlin. Well worth the price.

http://www.amazon.com/Vees-For-Victory- ... or+victory

Tom N · **Posted:** Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:27 pm

I have a running joke at the Planes of Fame with local Allison guru Joe Yancey. Seems that every time we have either Wee Willy or Spam Can's Merlin valve train removed for inspection of cams, cam followers etc -for their routine maintenance, ( every 30-40 hours) shows up for a visit. Says we should use Velcro on the valve covers! The Allison powered P-40 or P-38 have virtually no concerns in this area because of the more advanced roller cam followers used..... he jokes Allison drivers don't even need to know where their valve covers are...!
Tom N

mlenoch · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:12 am

Thank you for all that posted in this thread. This is a much cheaper way of hearing, learning, extracting all these stories and information. What I mean by that.......normally I'd be buying several rounds to keep the conversations going. However, by the 4th round, I would have forgotten what was said during the first round!! Budda-bing!

Hey Inspector - are there any forgotten cache's of Merlin parts hidden in the SEA area?

VL

PS: Continental built about 300+ Merlins in Muskegon, Michigan.

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:41 am

vlado wrote:

Thank you for all that posted in this thread. This is a much cheaper way of hearing, learning, extracting all these stories and information. What I mean by that.......normally I'd be buying several rounds to keep the conversations going. However, by the 4th round, I would have forgotten what was said during the first round!! Budda-bing!

Hey Inspector - are there any forgotten cache's of Merlin parts hidden in the SEA area?

VL

PS: Continental built about 300+ Merlins in Muskegon, Michigan.

Vlado -

I highly doubt you'd be interested in any of the parts, if there were any, that were "left over" from the thunderboat glory days. The way most of those parts were treated was, shall we say, less than airworthiness standards!

Besides...isn't buying rounds a much more fun way of extracting anecdotal information?! haha

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:43 am

Some RR Heritage books relating to the Merlin-

No 2 The Merlin in Perspective - the combat years £10.00 £15.00
A Harvey-Bailey, 4th edition, 1995 (204 pages, 100 photographs /
illustrations)
Chronicles the development of the Merlin throughout the war years
and lists all Mark numbers and installations.

No 7 Rolls-Royce - Hives, The Quiet Tiger OUT OF PRINT

No 9 Rolls-Royce and the Mustang OUT OF PRINT

No 19 The Merlin 100 Series - the ultimate military development £10.00 £15.00
A Harvey-Bailey, D J Piggott 1993 (219 pages, 208 illustrations)
This volume forms an extension to book No 2 in the series and
consists almost entirely of technical illustrations of the Merlin 100
series engines.

No 29 Rolls-Royce on the Front Line - the life and times of a Service
Engineer
£10.00 £15.00
T Henniker, 2000 (285 pages, 100 photographs)
This book relates Tony Henniker’s apprenticeship years in Derby
before recounting his experience in the field both in the UK and
abroad.

No 41 Overhaul of Merlin Engines in India and the USSR
C W Evans and Y Rybin, 2009 (203 pages, 57 photographs) £15.00 £20.00
An A4 volume recording the support of Merlins for Spitfire and
Hurricane aircraft, by Civilian Maintenance Units in India, and by the
military on the Soviet-German front, in particularly difficult
circumstances during the Second World War.

No 42 “Something Quite Exceptional” £7.00 £10.00
Adam Goodyear, 2010 (85 pages, 57 photographs)
Published to mark the 70th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain this A5
full colour book traces the life of the artist, Hugh Easton, and his
design of the stained glass window commemorating the sacrifice of the
young RAF pilots in the Battle of Britain. Included is a reproduction of
the 1949 souvenir brochure published after the unveiling.

From this list-
http://www.enginehistory.org/Reviews/R- ... erForm.pdf

The Inspector · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:14 am

Vlado, as Randy says, except for old boat racing stuff that had it's guts twisted out, isn't much around here. All the local Mustang owners use out of state rebuilders none of whom would allow an old boat racing part on the property. The couple of restored older Unlims that do run a MERLIN (a couple of BUDWEISERS, ATLAS VAN LINES Blue Blaster' everything else is ALLISON) keep the revs way way down during demo runs and the boats rarely get over 110 or so as they are museum pieces that can be taken out and run for exhibition, not competetion.
It was kind of fun freewheeling this discussion and thanks for participating! I had fun and all remain as friends, I see your passion and hope you can appreciate mine.
:drink3:

k5083 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:25 am

This discussion is interesting in the historical context of the Army's near-disastrous policy for a few critical years of standardizing on the Allison for all pursuit types. This was darkly, and plausibly, alleged to be the result of GM's influence with the military, at least as far as the choice of engine.

The policy was near-disastrous not because of the limitations of the Allison per se, but because any engine has limitations and there is no way to predict whether those will conflict with the unforeseen operational requirements that may be placed on military aircraft.

The reason the policy was not quite disastrous was partly because of guys like de Seversky, whose 1942 book "Victory Through Air Power" railing against the policy is still well worth a read, and his designer Kartveli, who insisted on producing round engined fighters in violation of the policy. Somehow they jammed the P-43 into production despite the policy, which begat the P-47, which could do things none of the V-12 birds could do and ended up being produced in greater numbers than any of them.

And the other reason was of course the Merlin which made the P-51 the all-around fighter it was, although they say that down low, those Allison powered Mustangs were faster than the Merlin ones.

One thing I will say for the Allison as an observer is that it makes for a nice looking and sounding aeroplane. It looked for a while as if Oshkosh goers this year might get to see the three prewar production fighters that emerged from the one-engine policy in, P-38H, P-39Q, and P-40C, in the air at once, although recent news items cast a little uncertainty on Mr Lewis' P-39 making it.

Finally, can anyone else besides me hear Bill Greenwood cheering for Rich in the background?

August

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:24 am

In regards to Merlins in Particular-
You have the old days (WWII), The Good Old Days (post war to let's say the 80s/90s and today.
Operation, usage and parts availability are different in each of these periods.
RR continued to develop the Merlin Post War but Packard did not to any great amount.
Merlin has its problem areas that have been greatly improved on by modern engine rebuilders like Roush.
They used a bronze alloy for nuts on the rods, these would fail under abuse. Replace with the steel nuts. Now rods break under more abuse. Ultimate fix is Allison G Model Rods with modified pistons. Reno race motors used these on some engines.
Similar alloy used on cylinder retaining nuts. They are prone to crack. Roush one has a PMA replacement made from steel.
Cam fingers would create issues when the hard chrome face would flake off. This would eat the cam lobe. Merlin fingers are these fingers with a carbide insert brazed in. This makes this issue a thing of the past.
Roush makes PMA replacement pistons engineered to be lighter in weight to reduce stress on the rods.
A Roush Merlin engine went 1000 hrs or so lately. Roush then ran it in the test cell to test some new parts and said it looked good to go another 500 hrs on the bottom end.
no doubt a merlin requires more maint. in todays world they are reliable and have better support as far as new parts being made.
an Allison has its good and bad points as well.
the 2 things that have limited its ability to produce high power are limits in the induction system and cylinders that are captured on the top and bottom in the head. Under high loads the cylinder will flex and distort causing piston damage.

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Allison vs. Merlin

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