Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image?

dtpitcairn · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 12:13 am

I would be happy to see it preserved as it was found (too late in a way and it will continue to be damaged more) or restored to flight in a historically accurate manner, but then I don't have a horse in this race.

I believe that, over time, opinions (even here) help to shape thinking such that a future person or organization that puts in the time and money to negotiate for and move a wreck, may decide to preserve it or fly it depending on the arguments for each and/or the general consensus.

edit: Removed non-relevant info

JDK · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 1:31 am

Just a note of caution -

dtpitcairn wrote:

It seems the British view is to leave the dead WWII pilot in the plane where the USA removes the pilot and sends him home for burial.

That's an over-simplistic and not very accurate summary of a dangerously emotive topic. I wouldn't go there without a lot more accurate information, and even then with caution.

They are reasonable questions you ask, but not in this thread, I'd suggest.

It's not relevant. This Kittyhawk is not a war grave, as there's no evidence of a body. The pilot of the aircraft it's currently conjectured to be is still missing, but very evidently not in the aircraft, and apparently there have been no human remains found by the wreck by those tasked to investigate - which, notwithstanding our concerns over the treatment of the wreck, is the important question to check, now.

Regards,

gary1954 · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 7:55 am

I was wondering how long it would take for the parts to start vanishing and the destruction of the skin. Some folks are just ab-so-lutely "W o r t h l e s s" as individuals, nothing more than vandals, and I "despise" vandals. :axe:

dtpitcairn · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 2:42 pm

Thanks JDK,

I think many of us are concerned and interested in the pilot however it seems to me that finding the pilot is really a separate issue from the disposition of the airplane itself. Correct me if I am wrong but doing something or not doing something with the wreck at this point will have no bearing on the ability to find the pilot or speed at which that occurs. That said, I know nothing about pilot remains and aircraft recovery which is why I asked these questions. I knew my post would upset some people but I am very curious about the answers so posted it anyway. I would be interested in a PM answer from you if you please and I will delete my post if it is not relevant.
David

The Inspector · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 3:12 pm

Indeed, after over 52 years since it's discovery, and more than a few intense searches, S/Sgt V.L. Moore from the LBG is still undiscovered in the desert along with who knows how many others from all the forces who fought over fate of Libya and Egypt whether they cooked meals, drove a truck, carried a rifle, or flew an airplane so the artifact should remain and be on display somewhere as a constant reminder to all who see it of the terrible costs and still existing hope that, like the Sea perhaps eventually the desert will one day give up her dead and that these people and their sacrifices are not forgotten by those who recognize the struggles that took place in a trackless place so long ago, and that concern applies to everyone who enjoys freedom.

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 8:40 pm

The latest video shows that not only has the glass been smashed, but there appear to be some new bullet holes in the cowl.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1885539&postcount=675

The preserve/restore debate may soon be moot, as at this rate there won't be much left to recover.

SN

Wildchild · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 9:22 pm

Deleted.

JDK · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 9:56 pm

If I may reiterate:

JDK wrote:

The absolute best help WIX members can do here is not to make remarks that, read in Egypt, or by people with a stake in the process, act detrimentally to any negotiations for preservation.

Let's just not go too far down the smart remark route. Those kind of remarks on the internet have fouled up deals for recoveries and preservation in the past.

Please don't be the guy who couldn't keep it shut and fouled this one up.

If you really want to help, don't make aggressive or disrespectful remarks, however much you may feel they are warranted. The ONLY thing such remark COULD achieve is to foul up potential negotiations.

Thank you for your restraint.

Wildchild · **Posted:** Thu May 03, 2012 10:30 pm

Sorry... But you can imagine how upset I am -.- I mean why use a good airplane for target practice...

JDK · **Posted:** Fri May 04, 2012 1:54 am

It is extremely frustrating, I agree. However the best we can do is not to hinder those trying to do the right thing by the aircraft.

David ('dtpitcairn') - Your post is quite right, I agree - in the separate issues with the aircraft and (presumed) missing pilot. As to the question of the recovery of the missing, war graves and the like, it's another whole issue, and best not in this thread (because of its hot topic nature) IMHO. I'd also be wary of discussing that topic even in a new thread simply because it is, understandably, very difficult for many to discuss without an emotional connection - quite understandably.

Thanks for the feedback and input, and restraint. Fingers crossed for a recovery soon.

Regards,

bombadier29 · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:17 pm **Posts:** 272

I doubt anything that is or isn't said on this board is going to have any effect on this P-40, it's recovery, disposition or whatever. It's not going to have any effect on relations between the Arabs, Canadians, British, Americans, Australians or random bedouins. To think this message board has any effect on things like that is just ridicules.

To the Arabs this is nothing but sheet metal to be used for target practice. Or, something to be sold as a trinket to what few tourists still come over there after their political upheaval this last year. Anybody who honestly believes otherwise just doesn't understand the Arab mindset.

Hopefully the RAFM or so well off collector already has a plan in motion that will stop this airplane from winding up spread out on tables at the Khan Al-Khalili bazaar by the weekend. But wix isn't going to have an impact on that.

JDK · **Posted:** Fri May 04, 2012 2:48 am

bombadier29, you may believe that. I certainly hope it doesn't. But the fact remains I've posted from the knowledge (and no, I'm not going to discuss it) that recoveries have been compromised by childish and racist discussion on public forums.

I may be wrong - however a misspelled and generalised canard on any ethnic group isn't going to help, either. And it serves no useful purpose.

Yours,

bombadier29 · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:17 pm **Posts:** 272

Like I said, you obviously don't understand the Arab mindset. I apogize for my misspellings (auto correct on the iPad often does its own thing) but my comments were very, very far from being racist; as anybody that has ever spent any amount of time among the Arabs can tell you.

rreis · **Joined:** Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:42 pm **Posts:** 441

bombadier29 wrote:

Like I said, you obviously don't understand the Arab mindset. I apogize for my misspellings (auto correct on the iPad often does its own thing) but my comments were very, very far from being racist; as anybody that has ever spent any amount of time among the Arabs can tell you.

Without wanting to be disrespectful I know of many who spend their lives among foreigners and never "get it". On another hand, who decides what is racist or insulting is not the person who writes or speaks but those who read or hear. And that is crucial, especially in the internet, a place who fosters... misunderstandings and is riff with exaggerated reactions (the Internet is probably a great rocket fuel).

On another note I would say, in an unrelated fashion, there is a problem of information here. Despair yes, there is motive for that, even frustration. But if people on the ground don't know better how can they be expected to treat this find with the utter care most of us here would do? They are not <choose your favourite epithet here> but merely have a different set of perspectives in the world.

And I must add... that even inside some museums, people have been known to do horrible things... people with much more access to information than probably those on the ground there. Just saying...

best,

JDK · **Posted:** Fri May 04, 2012 6:41 am

Mainly I fail to see any merit in starting a (potentially counter-productive to the Kittyhawk) debate on general group characteristics, or otherwise, here.

My original suggestion (all it can be) of thinking twice and not posting such remarks, stands.

Thanks.

Warbird Information Exchange

Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image?

Who is online