Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image?

lmritger · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:01 pm

Wildchild wrote:

Then that means... Pilot perrished when trying to leave desert... :shock:

Tel mentioned that F/Sgt Copping's name is listed on the Alamein War Memorial, so he did indeed perish in North Africa... how and when is the question.

I do have a strong feeling the pilot's mortal remains are likely somewhere not too far away from the wreck.

Lynn

Shay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:07 pm

Quote:

With dry cells/batteries and radios removed from the aircraft and remains of them sitting adjacent to the wreck I do wonder if the pilot tried to contact base by rigging them up outside?

regards

Mark Pilkington

If this was the case, which it is looking more like it, I'm sure we can all imagine the grim reality this poor fellow must have faced before deciding to marching off into sandy oblivion. With an impact such as this I would be surprised if the pilot wasn't injured or at the very least very very sore. Less and Less am I seeing a revered WW2 fighter as I do a chilling momument to a pilot's last living moments on earth.

If this is F/Sgt Copping's Kittyhawk then this might shed some light onto the circumstances leading up to his last flight (excerpt from "Kittyhawk Pilot"):

Quote:

In the meantime, Axis ground forces had been advancing rapidly. By nightfall panic poured through the base of 233 Wing. Twenty-one Panzer Division was on the escarpment in control of Fuka landing grounds only seventeen miles from LG-09. A large concentration of vehicles was already preparing for the night only miles short of that base.

"The order was given to evacuate immediately,” Eddie wrote. "All serviceable aircraft were flown off by the light of a few drums set on fire. They landed under similar conditions at LG-106.” The Kittyhawks landed at their new base about thirty miles east of LG-09 in the dark. It was about nine o'clock and the day had been long for most, but not long enough for F/Sgt Copping. He didn't make it over the ground convoys who fumbled their way to LG-106 in the dark, pushing their trucks through the heavy sand

Question: Is the holster looking device on the starboard side of the pilot's seat for a flare gun? If so I imagine he would have taken that with him.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

Buz · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:18 pm

I know some are banding about that this may be a certain aircraft, but I think before we jump to conclusions we need two vital pieces of information.

A. A position, as there is actually a little more information to that aircrafts disappearance than what has been written so far (its departure ground, its last noted heading etc).
B. An actual identity.

Not sure how family members would feel reading on the boards all this, to either get their hopes dash or at worst confirmation given to something they were reading about on forums for days before.

I have approx 25 P-40 aircraft that are unaccounted for in this general area from both air combat and Ferry flights,time to wait for an ID.

Buz

Wildchild · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:40 pm

Shay wrote:

If this is F/Sgt Copping's Kittyhawk then this might shed some light onto the circumstances leading up to his last flight (excerpt from "Kittyhawk Pilot"):

Quote:

In the meantime, Axis ground forces had been advancing rapidly. By nightfall panic poured through the base of 233 Wing. Twenty-one Panzer Division was on the escarpment in control of Fuka landing grounds only seventeen miles from LG-09. A large concentration of vehicles was already preparing for the night only miles short of that base.

"The order was given to evacuate immediately,” Eddie wrote. "All serviceable aircraft were flown off by the light of a few drums set on fire. They landed under similar conditions at LG-106.” The Kittyhawks landed at their new base about thirty miles east of LG-09 in the dark. It was about nine o'clock and the day had been long for most, but not long enough for F/Sgt Copping. He didn't make it over the ground convoys who fumbled their way to LG-106 in the dark, pushing their trucks through the heavy sand

Question: Is the holster looking device on the starboard side of the pilot's seat for a flare gun? If so I imagine he would have taken that with him.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

Why would the pilot try a wheels down landing at night?

linx310 · **Joined:** Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:23 am **Posts:** 4

Quote:

Why would the pilot try a wheels down landing at night?

I think it was reported that the plane Copping was ferrying had a landing gear problem and could not retract it.

51fixer · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:11 pm

Shay wrote:

[
Question: Is the holster looking device on the starboard side of the pilot's seat for a flare gun? If so I imagine he would have taken that with him.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

Looks like it could be a fire extinguisher. Possibly popped out in the landing.

Shay · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:23 pm

Buz wrote:

I know some are banding about that this may be a certain aircraft, but I think before we jump to conclusions we need two vital pieces of information.

A. A position, as there is actually a little more information to that aircrafts disappearance than what has been written so far (its departure ground, its last noted heading etc).
B. An actual identity.

Not sure how family members would feel reading on the boards all this, to either get their hopes dash or at worst confirmation given to something they were reading about on forums for days before.

I have approx 25 P-40 aircraft that are unaccounted for in this general area from both air combat and Ferry flights,time to wait for an ID.

Buz

Agreed.

Are you able to associate the HS-B code to any of those you have unaccounted?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

Buz · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:00 pm

Shay

I have 8 aircraft that were ex 260SQDN or from 260SQDN at the time of their loss, however I dont have codes for them, also have two others which I have codes for so can discount them (HS-D and HS-E both force landed on ferry flights and were SOC).

Buz

Ashley Briggs · **Joined:** Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:02 pm **Posts:** 35

This is the plate that sits on the left hand longeron just forward of the throttle quadrant & seems to be the one missing from this wreck.

Cheers
Ash.

dtpitcairn · **Posted:** Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:34 pm

To expand on Rich's comment about the data bent seat back and also earlier commentary about the turn and bank indicator being smashed on purpose, could it be that the turn and bank indicator glass was broken by the pilots head during the landing? Seems like the pilot would have hit the control stick if his head hit the dash though. If someone already said all this, sorry.

shepsair · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:01 am

Hi

I agree with Buz as well. Until we know a c/n and serial it is all conjecture.

This is where Copping would have been heading for I believe.

From RAF Flying Training and Support Units - Sturtivant/Hamlin?Halley by Air Britain Publications.

No 3 (Middle East) Aircraft Repair Unit was formed 15.5.42 , ex Kittyhawk Repair Section at ISMAILIA, Egypt which is right up by the canal.

regards

Mark

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:03 am

Quote:

Less and Less am I seeing a revered WW2 fighter as I do a chilling momument to a pilot's last living moments on earth.

To me, that would make it more fitting to preserve the aircraft in it's present state than restore it. I know I'll take some heat from the "fly 'em all!" crowd, but this aircraft has stood as a lonely sentinel for seven decades, and I think displaying her that way would be a much more fitting tribute to those poor souls consumed by the desert. It would have been nice to see something similar done with the Lady Be Good, but sadly there's really not enough left of her. Since this aircraft has been discovered (and hopefully recovered) intact and unmolested, she's the perfect candidate for such a memorial. IF it turns out the pilot perished, I hope his mortal remains can be found and returned home. When you get down to it, even it the aircraft itself is hacked up and destroyed, if its discovery helps bring home a lost casualty, then it would be worth it.

SN

Ken · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:44 am

Steve Nelson wrote:

To me, that would make it more fitting to preserve the aircraft in it's present state than restore it. I know I'll take some heat from the "fly 'em all!" crowd, but this aircraft has stood as a lonely sentinel for seven decades, and I think displaying her that way would be a much more fitting tribute to those poor souls consumed by the desert. It would have been nice to see something similar done with the Lady Be Good, but sadly there's really not enough left of her. Since this aircraft has been discovered (and hopefully recovered) intact and unmolested, she's the perfect candidate for such a memorial. IF it turns out the pilot perished, I hope his mortal remains can be found and returned home. When you get down to it, even it the aircraft itself is hacked up and destroyed, if its discovery helps bring home a lost casualty, then it would be worth it.

SN

No heat here, I agree. I hope the powers that be are able to seize this moment, preserve the aircraft as undisturbed as is possible, and put it on appropriate display. It would make a great tribute and act as an informational artifact.

Ken

peter · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:56 am

51fixer wrote:

IThis photo shows holes corroding through the panel in front of the windshield.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1146825662 ... 9234481122
.

Oh come one .. that isnt corrosion.. either damage caused from trying to gain access or remove the ring sight but not corrosion you can see the edges of that hole are pushed in.. :drink3:

mustanglover · **Posted:** Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:43 am

peter wrote:

51fixer wrote:

IThis photo shows holes corroding through the panel in front of the windshield.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1146825662 ... 9234481122
.

Oh come one .. that isnt corrosion.. either damage caused from trying to gain access or remove the ring sight but not corrosion you can see the edges of that hole are pushed in.. :drink3:

Also, something else interesting in these photos.

I am no expert in deserts and how the wear and tear from everyday sandblasting, but why would the upper sides of this airplane not be sandblasted, yet the wings and lower fuselage is very well sandblasted?

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