B-17 Flying Fortress/44-83735 ~ the Duxford resto thread

[Bomberboy]

Thanks for the correction, now how about the source of the other three engines?
I recall there was some swapping involving Sally B and the RAF Museum B-17.

Ooohh errrr, now there be another story.
Now let me see If I got this right.
No.1's & No.2's were swapped with Sally B & Hendon (don't think Mary Alice was involved). The ex Hendon No.1 was.........not very good and got swapped out again on Sally B the following year for an overhauled engine.
No.3's & No.4's was swapped between Hendon & Mary Alice.
No.3 on Mary Alice is now en Ex Sally B unit and now the No.4 is an ex N17W unit.

HTH

[Heavens Eagle]

So, from what I am gathering from the latest posts is that this plane, when it was on display in the museum was basically a clugemeister. It was put together for show and not necessarily done correctly or well. Thus all the corrosion had places to develop and parts were missing or held in with the proverbial spit, bubble gum and baling wire. While not even close to the deteriorated condition of the Memphis Belle when it was shipped off to Dayton for restoration it wasn't correctly done, but was considered "acceptable" at the time.

Now with this quick restoration treatment it is being brought back to non-operational but complete and correct condition.

Interesting!

[D/C/W]

So, from what I am gathering from the latest posts is that this plane, when it was on display in the museum was basically a clugemeister. It was put together for show and not necessarily done correctly or well. Thus all the corrosion had places to develop and parts were missing or held in with the proverbial spit, bubble gum and baling wire. While not even close to the deteriorated condition of the Memphis Belle when it was shipped off to Dayton for restoration it wasn't correctly done, but was considered "acceptable" at the time.

Now with this quick restoration treatment it is being brought back to non-operational but complete and correct condition.

Interesting!

I'm interested in the word 'clugemeister'. Even Google can't help with one of the few American terms that hasn't yet crossed the Atlantic, but I think I get the meaning!
You are correct in saying that restoration standards have changed over the years, but I think there's a chance we are overlooking the huge amount of excellent work done in the early years of the B-17 at Duxford.
If you will forgive me repeating some of Bomberflight's earlier posts, here's a brief history of the aircraft with IWM. I am relying on many published sources, particularly Roger Freeman's many books on the B-17 and the 8th Air Force.
When '735 was finally grounded in 1971, she was already a much modified airframe. Apart from the early executive conversion and the photosurvey mods done in France, she had been stripped of many items by IGN. When Ted White recovered the airworthy B-17 that became 'Sally B', he also took over the remains of '735. It was offered to the IWM as a static exhibit, and recovered to Duxford by DAS volunteers in 1975. Here she is soon after arrival:


(Photo from Tony Clarke)

'735 was reassembled, but it was not until IWM took ownership in 1978 that a full restoration programme began. Roger Freeman credits Ted Hagger, Eddie West and Cliff Bishop as leading members of the team ( I am sure there are many other names deserving of mention). It took eleven years just to return the B-17 to its original external configuration, with a long search for parts involving dealers and collectors around the world.
When '735 was in place for the opening of the American Air Museum in 1997, she was one of the most completely fitted-out B-17's, thanks to 20 years of hard work by IWM professionals and volunteers.
The selection of 'Mary Alice' as the aircraft to be represented was led by the configuration (ie Cheyenne turret) but was very appropriate given the original aircraft's remarkable history of battle damage and resurrection. A quote from one of her pilots (2nd Lt George Cracraft): 'She was put together like a jigsaw puzzle'. If you have read the combat history of 'Mary Alice', (I recommend 'Claims To Fame: The B-17 Flying Fortress' by Steve Birdsall and Roger A Freeman), there is no more appropriate aircraft to represent both the B-17 saga and the 8th Air Force. After 98 missions and probably more battle damage than any other survivor, she even returned to the USA for her sad but inevitable fate.
The first rebuild of '735 produced a museum exhibit that embodied the purpose of the AAM at Duxford, to pay tribute to American air power, particularly the sacrifice of 30,000 young Americans at a time when more than half of the USAAF combat strength was based in Eastern England. The standard of work was exceptional and has lasted very well, but an opportunity to conserve and refresh the aircraft was not to be missed. The project is now one year along, and a deadline is fast approaching. The standards demanded in 2012 have moved on, and there is still a possibility that time constraints will mean that the B-17 will return to display with a few minor items uncorrected, but the very survival of '735 is due to the earlier work completed.

The work done by many people involved with this aircraft in its 37 years at Duxford deserves more than the term 'acceptable'.

Come and have a look!

[Bomberboy]

The work done by many people involved with this aircraft in its 37 years at Duxford deserves more than the term 'acceptable'.

Nicely put DCW.

As this is a static item, it matters not that there will be quite a number of items missing, which both the ordinary punter and even some 'more knowkedgable' people will not necessarily know is the case anyway, but in my mind, the work, money and dedication involved to turn what was effectively a dismantled, unreprtesentative airframe into the excellent representation of a typically fully equipped wartime B-17, is second to none!!!
In some ways, the fact that she doesn't fly, gives her advantages as far as fitting out is concerned, over the flyers.

[D/C/W]

Duxford Wednesday March 28th:

A quick look around Hangar 5 at Duxford today revealed progress with many of the fixtures and fittings.
A start has been made on re-fitting the glazing panels:



The ADF housing has been stencilled (yes it will be upside down when fitted):



This is part of the tail gun mounting:



Each of the cheek guns has had new fabric shrouds made (new and old are here together with part of the gun mount):



The chin turret has also got new fabric seals, although the original zips have been incorporated:



More progress with applying the markings:



More soon...

[D/C/W]

Duxford Friday March 30th:

No update today, instead a plea for help. Although '735 is one of the most complete B-17's preserved, there is still a list of items to be sourced.

From a team member:

"As we are nearing the completion of our B-17G Flying Fortress
restoration/conservation project, we have found that the outer cowl
rings are missing. These units, which enable the secure attachment of
the engine cowl panels to encompass the engines, have most likely been
usurped by the 'Sally B' refurb back in the 1970's.
As it stands, the cowls are not secured properly, so it is desireable
therefore to source and procure a set of these rings to constitute an
accurate representation of the B-17, in addition to the safety aspect
of the method in which these particular panels are mounted. The
acquisition of these items would also enable us to cross them off our
'missing items' list thereby taking a step closer to completing this
impressive aircraft.

In the event that a set is unavailable due to the scarcity of such
items, a reasonable alternative would be to borrow one ring so that we
may accurately reproduce a full set 'in house'.

Your assistance on this matter would be invaluable and greatly appreciated."

Any response via this thread or private message will be forwarded to the team.

[b29flteng]

DC-3s with R-1820s have cowling that looks similar. Maybe they could be used?

[SPANNERmkV]

Having been on BOTH sides of the same argument regarding authenticity I have to say I GREATLY admire what the IWM folks are doing!
There were certain items on TEXAS RAIDERS that we got "stuck with" in the name of getting her flying sooner and not being so picky.
What reminded me of those days is seeing the lovely silver .50 cal. gun cradles ready to go back in Mary Alice. I will continue to refer to her as such until the new identity is settled.
A non-CAF gun dealer offered to do our 50 cals. and did a great job on the receivers and barrels but I almost got airsick when they came back with black cradles as well.
Because he was 75 miles out of town, dislocated because of Hurricane Ike and we were in no mood to risk twelve guns disappearing off into the woods of East Texas we took them and ran with them.

Back to Duxford AND previous care-takers. The standard (for a great restoration) is what one would come to expect of a top-notch Museum charged with preservation.
Regarding corrosion- I can only speculate that earlier care-takers either did not know what was under the paint OR might possibly not have had the re$ources to do what American Museum at Duxford just did.
I saw the same standard of workmenship being lavished ona cold-war British jet on my visit last Summer and was given the cook's tour and some explanations of what was "off" with some of the airframes on display and why they were not going to be addressed under the current plans.

AND that the management helped keep flying aircraft FLYING by their willingness to swap engines with airplanes is need is prompting me to get out the cheque-book and join the Museum.

This B-17 fan salutes you.

Don Price- Plain ol' Joe with the CAF and lovng it

[D/C/W]

Duxford Thursday April 5th:

Time for another quick update on '735. The unusual sight of an empty paintshop means that all major structures are largely finished and awaiting a move to the American Air Museum for assembly:



There are still hundreds of tasks to finish, today saw the tail guns fitted:







Cockpit glazing is being installed, some new panels and some replacements:



A bomb door waiting for attention:



More soon...

[peter]

Thanks for the update... she is looking great!

[ktst97]

So, from what I am gathering from the latest posts is that this plane, when it was on display in the museum was basically a clugemeister. It was put together for show and not necessarily done correctly or well. Thus all the corrosion had places to develop and parts were missing or held in with the proverbial spit, bubble gum and baling wire. While not even close to the deteriorated condition of the Memphis Belle when it was shipped off to Dayton for restoration it wasn't correctly done, but was considered "acceptable" at the time.

Now with this quick restoration treatment it is being brought back to non-operational but complete and correct condition.

Interesting!

And just how close to perfect is the B-17 you are restoring ??

[peter]

Wow that's pretty demeaning to those past and present that are/have restored this airframe!!

[APG85]

I saw this B-17 in the late 1980's at Duxford several times and it looked absolutely fantastic. I imagine the current restoration will take it to a new standard of excellence. Great work by all through the decades!

[Heavens Eagle]

Hey guys!

My earlier statement was just making an observation based on what some folks had said on here and some observations of some of the photos of pre-restored parts and items. Two items came quickly to mind. The engine missing all the parts on the backside and the comment about how the nose turret will now be mounted and set properly.

I know that it takes a lot of work to get a plane put together even just for show. Never mind the fact that this is a large 4 engined bomber that is approaching 60 years of age. Yes, I saw the photos of how it arrived at Duxford and it was amazing how well the original team put it together for display.

This rework though has been quite a bit more thorough in many areas than the previous rework. The cleaning and redo of the fuselage panels around the life raft storage over the radio operators position is one example. I am sure that previously the main consideration was to put the plane together in order to have as accurate a display as was possible at the time.

I KNOW it is a lot of work to do an accurate resto. I have done a couple of car restos in my time and it is a pain to find parts and fix corrosion, paint and all. Had some training in college for airframe maintence and it is a lot of work, especially when having to fabricate missing or damaged panels and then replace them using the original rivet holes in the mating parts. Definitely not easy and not something that can be done by a novice. I was amazed at how far they disassembled the wings to move them over to the restoration hanger.

Now lets set that somewhat inaccurate statement I made a while back to rest and move on with how wonderful a job all the volunteers and workers are doing to put this aircraft back in better shape than it has been since the time it was new!

Rant done
Time to chill and have a pint!

[D/C/W]

Duxford Friday April 20th:

An overdue update on the Duxford B-17G:

While the major airframe sections are waiting for the big move, detail work is continuing in the workshop area. This shot was taken during a rare quiet period:



Fabric covering on the ailerons is well underway:











New glazing is being installed: