Guadalcanal TBF Avenger questions

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:49 pm

I am curently working on my No. 3 Squadron, RNZAF, book section where the period is March-April 1943. The squadron was at that time based at Henderson Field, Guadalcanal, with Lockheed Hudsons. They were an RNZAF unit but came under the command of the US Navy there.

Their roles at that time were to perform regular daily reconnaissance patrols all around Guadalcanal, and they had added duties such as night time strikes on Japanese airfields and positions, search and rescue missions, special submarine searches, etc. They were highly regarded by the US command for their work.

On the night of 20th of March 1943 they started a new role that became regular. A solo Hudson lead the Avenger force from Guadalcanal up to southern Bougainville. As the Avengers went in to lay mines around the Buin area the Hudson stood off a way back circling over Vella Lavella, dropping flares every few minutes. This was done because the flares acted as a guide to the Avengers who after their mine dropping run could use it as a directional guide. The Hudson would move off at an assigned time and head home to Cactus, continuing to drop the flares regularly to provide a path for the Avengers to follow. All the Avengers got home safely.

From then on this became a semi-regular mission for the kiwi Hudsons. I have the squadron records which show this, every couple of nitghts a Hudson lead the Avenger force.

I have anecdotal evidence from Hudson aircrew memebrs explaining why it was necessary. I have been told that the commanders were dismayed at the losses of Avengers that had been disappearing on night missions after leaving their target and it was considered that the crews were not experienced enoguh with night flying - especially the navigators who were largely just out of flight training at home. The Hudson crews were generally much more experienced and had very experienced navigators, and it was considered that they could help keep the Avengers on course and not get lost.

This does seem odd that an Avenger navigator who might be able to fly fine by day over the ocean and find a carrier - a spec in the wide ocean - without trouble could not find a large island at night. But there's too much anecdotal eveidence to igmore, and the records show that our crews were certainly using flares to guide the Avengers home, and that it was much appreciated by the US Navy crews.

So what I want to know is:
- Does anyone here have any eveidence to support the story that up till 20th of March 1943 the Avenger squadrons were losing aircraft on night flights?
- Was US Navy navigation training light on night flying training? (I find this hard to believe).
- Does anyne here know which actual US Navy Avenger squadrons were based at Guadalcanal and involved in these raids during March-April 1943?

Thanks for any info or leads.

Dan K · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:04 am

Dave,

A name and unit keep appearing on my internet searches.

Apparently a Marine Major John Sapp of VMTB-143 led a total of 42 Marine and Navy Avengers on the evening of March 20, 1943, to mine the waters off Kahili. A similar mission was apparently flown the following night to the same destination (no idea if Sapp led that mission as well). USAAF B-17s and B-24s bombed Kahili simultaneously as a diversionary tactic.

I've found no mention yet of significant Avenger losses nor RNZAF Hudson involvement.

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:53 am

Thanks Dan, that is definately that first mine-dropping mission that I mentioned as the recirds I have state there were 42 Avengers in the flight.

There was definately Hudson involvement as well, the Hudson on this operation was flown by Sqn Ldr Johnnie Walker, and the Hudson on the operation the next night was flown by F/Lt Ken King. there were many more thereafter, and I would think that every one of the Avenger raids from then on was escorted by a Hudson. On the 23rd of May 1943 on the raid the Hudson was dived on by an attacking Zero during the return trip as it dropped a flare. The Hudson crew was totally unaware of that but they were told afterwards by TBF pilots who witnessed it.

For the record, before the 20th of March 1943 Hudsons were previously also flyying on the US formation raids on the Buin/Kahili area, they were going in first and reporting back on regular intervals what the weather was like. If it was bad the massed formation turned back, but I think that only happened once as far as I have seen. After finishing the weather reporting these Hudsons always flew home via Munda where they dropped a stick of bombs on the runway each time. Such a minimal amount of bombs would not have done much damage but it would have disrupted the sleep of the Japanese there, just like their "Washing Machine Charlie" raids did Cactus.

Dan K · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:59 am

Sorry if this is "old news", but perhaps a clue:

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/USN/LLMar43.htm

This USN overseas aircraft loss list for March 1943 suggests that VMSB(VMTB)-143 lost several TBF on March 14 while based on Guadalcanal. Could these be the losses that motivated the use of navigation help from the RNZAF on March 20 and following?

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:20 am

Thanks again Dan, that has got to be a clue indeed. I didn't know that site existed as I don't usually research US topics. Very handy, thanks.

I believe the US Navy and USMC worked on the basis of 15 operational aircraft per squadron so I assume that 42 aircraft has to be from at least three squadrons on that raid. Perhaps all those early-mid March TBF losses were a contributing factor to the decision.

So it looks like there certainly may be merit to the stories of TBF losses resulting in RNZAF guidance.

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:24 am

Is there a dedicated Guadalcanal campaign archive or museum in the USA, or a US Navy archive, or anything like that where such research questions can be sent to?

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:53 am

I just came across this website thanks to the clues you gave me Dan, which if you roll down to page 470 of the text, it has a piece on a mine dropping raid on 23 May 43, which is the same raid that Jack Winefield's Hudson was attacked by the diving Zero without the crew relaising. It mentions in the text about the Hudson's involvement.

http://ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/II/USMC-II-V-2.html

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:45 pm

not hard to lose situational awareness at night and get lost after having manuvered into the target area and off target.... especially if getting shot at.
Not hard to do during the day either, come to think of it.

Dan K · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:37 pm

Dave Homewood wrote:

Is there a dedicated Guadalcanal campaign archive or museum in the USA, or a US Navy archive, or anything like that where such research questions can be sent to?

The Army Air Forces in WWII, Volume 4 endnotes indicate the reports for the minelaying operations of March 20-21 are with the US Marine Corps History Division.

File for March 20-21: CM-IN-11680 (Dated 3-22-43)
File for March 22: CM-IN-12186 (Dated 3-23-43)

See page 729, Note 43, of the following link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=CDWtdz ... BF&f=false

USMC History Division website:

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Home_Page.htm

Only museum in the USA with a Guadalcanal focus (with which I'm familiar) is the Air Zoo in Kalamazoo, Michigan; but is more of a memorial rather than research facility.

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:18 pm

Thanks for that stuff Dan, I will send an email to the USMC History Division and see if they can provide the backstory to these Hudson missions.

My main worry is that if I publish the reason for the Hudsons taking part that veterans have told me, about the Avenger navigators getting lost, I might get poo-pooed and attacked by Americans for saying this. I already have been treated exactly that way when I mentioned these flare guidance missions on a forum some time back, because US readers must have assumed that I was attempting to say our navigators were better than theirs. I wasn't really saying that at all.

Although that is actually something intimated by the kiwi veterans and may well have some truth to it as NZ had been at war since 1939. Johnnie Walker who flew the first Hudson flare mission had been a General Reconnaissance pilot before the war with the Territorial Air Force and was also an airline pilot as his day job, and had flown around the world in the London-Melbourne air race, so there is no doubting his navigation skills as being very high. By 1943 he'd had about five years experience of military flying on patrols over the ocean, some of that at night.

Many of the other senior pilots and navigators in No. 3 Squadron RNZAF had similar backgrounds, including Ken King who flew the second mission who had also been a territorial Air Force pilot fluing ocean patrols pre-war and through the war, and I know that the US command had huge respect for the way our guys did things, and their high skills level.

But at the same time I am guessing that ay least some of the US Navy and USMC pilots and navigators inthose Avengers must have been flying before December 1941 as career airmen. And those new to the squadrons went through an intensive training programme with the Navy compared with that of the Air Force.

I guess it was the newbies rather thjn the old hands in those Avengers that were going missing, if they really were simply disappearing through error and not enemy action. I agree with you enemy ace that the disorientation factor at night when pulling out of a mine-laying run or bombing attack under fire must have been certainly a real factor, and flying back down the slot with nothing but silouettes of little islands below in the dark must have been difficult. If they strayed off course they might run out of fuel, or stray over an enemy stronghold. Anything could happen.

It was the US command who asked the Hudsons to perform this role too, so they must have had big concerns I would think to implement such a regular mission.

So all I'm saying is I want to gather the actual facts first so I don't get in trouble with any US readers who think I have it wrong. I want my facts to be right.

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:21 pm

Actually, has anyone got any nice photos of the Avengers at Henderson Field that these No. 3 Squadron guys would have been flying with, that I might be able to please use in the book?

Or for that matter SBD Dauntless, B-17's, B-24's or P-38's there in early 1943 that these guys all served alongside and flew missions with?

Dan K · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:22 am

Dan K wrote:

Sorry if this is "old news", but perhaps a clue:

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/USN/LLMar43.htm

This USN overseas aircraft loss list for March 1943 suggests that VMSB(VMTB)-143 lost several TBF on March 14 while based on Guadalcanal. Could these be the losses that motivated the use of navigation help from the RNZAF on March 20 and following?

Eureka, Dave...the story of VMSB-143's missing TBFs and pilots on 3-14-43

Check out pages 62 and previous of Bruce Gamble's The Black Sheep:

http://books.google.com/books?id=qo3DSc ... &q&f=false

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:15 am

Hi Dan,

This sounds tantalising, but I don't have a copy of that book. Do you have a copy? Any chance of a scan of the pages in question please?

By the way I could not get that USMC History Division website to open for me either.

airnutz · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:10 am

Dave Homewood wrote:

...but I don't have a copy of that book. Do you have a copy? Any chance of a scan of the pages in question please?

When you went to the link Dave, did the book pages not load for you?

Dave Homewood · **Posted:** Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:08 pm

Sadly no. I just got an advery for the book. Hmmm.

Can someone here maybe email me some screen shots of the pages they can see? My email is dave_daasnz@homail.com

Thanks.

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Guadalcanal TBF Avenger questions

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