Mid-air at Duxford, Pilots ok

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:00 pm

Here is a simple example of what it takes to fly formation, pick a spot on the wall, now stare at it for 30 min.

We used to tell someone that wanted to learn formation what skill it takes. When you get your pilots license, you are expected to hold your heading and altitude within a couple of hundred feet and 20 degrees of heading, by the time you get to a ATP rating, those have tightened down to 50 ft of altitude and 5 degrees of heading. When you are flying formation, you are holding your altitude within 2-3ft and heading to 1/2 degrees. all while never looking at your instruments, flying be feel, and never taking your eyes off your two reference points on the leaders plane, most of time it is the tailwheel lined up on the far wingtip.

Dudley Henriques · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:34 pm

Speedy wrote:

In my experience from 20 years ago, I personally found that the formation flying itself was a blast--if not the most work-intensive part of flying. I'd come back from a form flight exhausted, but grinning from ear to ear and wanting to go do it again.

But it's the break up and rendezvous phase that always felt like the most opportunity for error existed because of the relative separation and closure rates. Overshoots and undershoots with the speed differential means that the plane in the window can get bigger a whole lot faster than you anticipate...especially if the 'lead' isn't where they are suppsed to be, or where you anticpate they are going to be when you get there. And the bigger the platform you're flying, the farther out ahead you have to be. Dissimilar platforms are an even bigger issue.

I'm kind of split on the comment about not having to be a pilot to know about formation flying. On one hand, the whole idea behind form flying is the hand/eye coordination of how to maneuver the airplane 'by feel' while keeping your eyes on the lead and maintaining proper separation. That's not a 'book learn' subject, or even an "I've seen it" subject...you kind of have to live it to truly get it. BUT...as a pilot, having another set of eyes in the back seat who knew what to look for and who could act as a functional 'safety observer'....that is priceless. So how can you argue with that?

The way I explain it as relates to flying wing; it's about caressing the controls. If you're doing it right you are literally defining the quality of lead's flying. With your mind, your thoughts, your sub-conscious, through your hands and feet you don't fly YOUR aircraft. You are flying LEAD'S aircraft with your mind and body.

p51 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:56 pm

Speedy wrote:

I got a similar brief on my first T-6 ride. "If you see me jump out, you might want to follow me..."

I got the same thing on my first warbird ride and later on my first P-51 ride. Still, being told that and being able to implement it in such a short time thing are two different things.

mlenoch · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:17 pm

"The way I explain it as relates to flying wing; it's about caressing the controls. If you're doing it right you are literally defining the quality of lead's flying. With your mind, your thoughts, your sub-conscious, through your hands and feet you don't fly YOUR aircraft. You are flying LEAD'S aircraft with your mind and body."

I'm getting a little damp here................

(Seriously, in essence, this is very true & correct. VL)

Dudley Henriques · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:26 pm

vlado wrote:

"The way I explain it as relates to flying wing; it's about caressing the controls. If you're doing it right you are literally defining the quality of lead's flying. With your mind, your thoughts, your sub-conscious, through your hands and feet you don't fly YOUR aircraft. You are flying LEAD'S aircraft with your mind and body."

I'm getting a little damp here................

(Seriously, in essence, this is very true & correct. VL)

God Vlado, I sure hope that's TEARS you're talking about here :-)

))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Dudley

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:27 pm

as Dudley and Vlado said, you are very light on the controls, you are flying using not much more than pressure to fly the plane. I used to work the throttle on the 6 using my thumb and forefinger at the base of the control, a manifold pressure change of a inch is alot when you are tucked in tight, 1/2 and 1/4 in manifold changes are the norm.

mustanglover · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:36 pm

vlado wrote:

"The way I explain it as relates to flying wing; it's about caressing the controls. If you're doing it right you are literally defining the quality of lead's flying. With your mind, your thoughts, your sub-conscious, through your hands and feet you don't fly YOUR aircraft. You are flying LEAD'S aircraft with your mind and body."

I'm getting a little damp here................

(Seriously, in essence, this is very true & correct. VL)

Dudley Henriques · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:44 pm

Matt Gunsch wrote:

as Dudley and Vlado said, you are very light on the controls, you are flying using not much more than pressure to fly the plane. I used to work the throttle on the 6 using my thumb and forefinger at the base of the control, a manifold pressure change of a inch is alot when you are tucked in tight, 1/2 and 1/4 in manifold changes are the norm.

Something I mentioned in a recent article on Mustang landing issues for the NATA April Mag is pertinent here in the formation discussion.
As you have correctly said, throttle use is extremely subtle and soft in formation position flying. Something I've always recommended in all airplanes and especially in the T6 and 51 is to solidly brace your throttle hand on the throttle quadrant behind the throttle and loosen the throttle friction lock a bit.....just enough so that extremely small movement is possible. Then use your wrist as a fulcrum and your fingers as a means to apply a vernier PRESSURE both ways on the throttle.
This is good procedure ALL the time when flying and in my opinion absolutely essential for station keeping in formation.
DH

ZRX61 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am **Posts:** 2304

Dudley Henriques wrote:

.................and Air Force pilots have to spend all that extra training time time learning to TAXI too!!! :-)

)))))))))
DH

Yeah, but they know how to stop an aircraft without a hook....

Shay · **Posted:** Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:03 pm

....and here i thought everyone used the Pappy Boyington rubber band method. :lol:

Here's vintage inflight footage of 4 Mustangs flying formation with the camera ship as Lead. It's apparent to see all the corrections they are making.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675044530_P-51_P-51s-peel-off_four-P-51s-in-flight_P-51s-in-formation

Shay
_____________
Semper Fortis

bluehawk15 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:34 am

Speedy wrote:

In my experience from 20 years ago, I personally found that the formation flying itself was a blast--if not the most work-intensive part of flying. I'd come back from a form flight exhausted, but grinning from ear to ear and wanting to go do it again.

Gee Speedy, I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like that! After coming back from a long formation flight, with dissimilar aircraft and many position changes, I find myself all sweaty and with cramping hands asking why is it I do this again? Then I answer, oh yeah, because it's so much fun!

Fred41 · **Posted:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:52 pm

The Skyraider is back at home.

http://www.foxalpha.com/forums/viewtopi ... c&start=75

Ken · **Posted:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:34 pm

Anyone in the know on Skyraider parts say how hard it would be to come up with an outer wing section?

As long as I'm asking the question, are there still stocks of big items like rudders, gear legs, or high probability of replacement items or are most big items reclaimed salvage/canned? The airplanes were flown into the 1970's (depending on which country you refer to) after all - although I imagine many US parts ended up in SEA.

Wonder if the Vietnamese still have parts on the shelf if that stuff is long gone? (I'm familiar with the persisting airframe and engine can stories from Bien Hoa and Da Nang), yet the NMUSAF A-1H has a Russian hydraulic pump, so go figure.

Ken

hercules130 · **Posted:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:34 pm

Ken wrote:

Anyone in the know on Skyraider parts say how hard it would be to come up with an outer wing section?

Not in the know at all but did find out the wing used for the return flight came from a static aircraft in France and is to be returned. So I am guessing fairly hard to come by.

Gary

bomberflight · **Posted:** Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:10 pm

I meant to share these pix with you at the weekend ~ but ran out of time ......

The replacement wing section can be clearly seen as it's devoid of any paint

The Skyraider being fired up for a test flight on Friday Sept 30

Ready to fly and bounding down the grass runway

The test flight successfully completed ~ time to head back home to France

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Mid-air at Duxford, Pilots ok

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