Warbird Information Exchange

I AM LOOKING FOR SOME INFORMATION ON LIEUTENANT COLONEL JOHN COLEMAN "PAPPY" HERBST WHO FLEW P-40N WARHAWKS AND P-51 B/C MUSTANGS WITH THE 23RD FIGHTER GROUP IN THE CHINA, BURMA, INDIA (CBI) THEATRE IN WORLD WAR II.

"PAPPY" FINISHED THE WAR WITH 18 VICTORIES AND WAS TRAGICALLY KILLED ON JULY 4, 1946 WHILE DEMONSTRATING A P-80A SHOOTING STAR OVER SAN DIEGO'S DEL MAR RACETRACK. LT./COL. HERBST HAD BEEN DEMONSTRATING THE P-80 AT MANY AVIATION EVENTS ACROSS AMERICA WITH HIS LONGTIME WINGMAN MAJOR ROBIN OLDS (LATER BRIGADIER GENERAL).

"PAPPY" ENLISTED IN THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE (RCAF) FOR PILOT TRAINING ON MAY 16, 1941 AND RESIGNED HIS COMMISSION AS A PILOT OFFICER ON MAY 19, 1942 IN ORDER TO JOIN THE UNITED STATES ARMY AIR CORPS (USAAC).

I AM WRITING A BIOGRAPHY FOR AN AVIATION MAGAZINE AND NEED TO KNOW THE DETAILS ON TWO QUESTIONS.

1. HIS MOST FAMOUS P-51B MUSTANG, #40, WAS NAMED "TOMMY'S DAD". DOES ANYONE KNOW WHY IT WAS SO NAMED?

2. I NEED TO ACCOUNT FOR HIS TIME STATESIDE FROM MAY 19, 1942 (WHEN HE RESIGNED HIS RCAF COMMISSION) TO FEBRUARY 20, 1944, WHEN HE TRANSFERRED TO THE 5TH FG IN THE CBI. IT IS BELIEVED HE SERVED AS A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR DURING THIS PERIOD AS HE HAD PASSED A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR'S COURSE WITH THE RCAF JUST PRIOR TO TRANSFERRING.

ANY HELP WITH THESE TWO QUESTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

CHEERS,
TOM WALSH.[/b]

Challenge Publications ran a biography on Pappy Herbst some years ago (methinks Air Classics). I could probably track down an issue id for you by tomorrow (unless you've already read it, that is).

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Tom

not directly an answer to your questions you might nevertheless be interested to know that I have a photograph of "Pappy" Herbst in a P-51K (with name below the cockpit.....), i.e. a late assigned a/c.

Please send PM with e-mail address so I can send you a scan.

Martin

Ack! I've got to stop this late-night posting.

The Challenge bio was on Tex Hill, with a few bits of info on Pappy Herbst--none of which answer your questions.

The mind is a terrible thing to waste...guilty as charged.

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It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

MARTIN:

THANKS FOR THE PICTURE OF "PAPPY" HERBST IN HIS LATER MODEL P-51K MUSTANG. I NOTICED THERE WAS A GERMAN KILL RECORDED ON THE SIDE ALONG WITH THE 18 JAPANESE AIRCRAFT WHICH HE SHOT DOWN. THIS LONE GERMAN KILL WAS ALSO RECORDED ON "TOMMY'S DAD", HIS P-51B.

MY QUESTION IS TO ANYONE WHO CAN ANSWER IT.

WHEN AND WHERE DID HE GET THIS VICTORY?

MY INFORMATION IS THAT HE NEVER WENT OVERSEAS FROM CANADA WITH THE RCAF. HE RESIGNED HIS COMMISSION FROM THE RCAF ON MAY 19, 1942 WHILE STILL ON CANADIAN SOIL. HE THEN SERVED AS A FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR IN THE USAAF STATESIDE UNTIL JOINING THE 5TH FG IN THE CBI ON FEBRUARY 20, 1944.

ANYONE?

CHEERS,
TOM WALSH.

Tom.

According to the AFHRA he was officially credited with the following victories:

CPT HERBST JOHN C AO01699245 76FTR SQ CBI
440617
CPT HERBST JOHN C AO01699245 74FTR SQ CBI
440715 (x2), 440806 (x2)
MAJ HERBST JOHN C AO01699245 74FTR SQ CBI
440903 (x2), 440905, 440916
LTC HERBST JOHN C AO01699245 74FTR SQ CBI
441009, 441218, 441223(x2), 441227(x2), 450116(x2), 450117

There's no mention of a victory in the ETO...

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Victory By Valor (Motto of the 20th Fighter Group)

John Herbst did go to England and I believe claimed a ME-109 with 403 Squadron. He also flew Hudsons for a while prior maybe on the ferry route for a total of around 450 hours. He served in the CACW 5th FG for 4 months prior to joining the 76th FS 23rd FG in May 44. He transfered to the 76th FS as CO in late June 44. They were flying a mix of P-40Ks/Ns/P-51Bs and 4 of his first 5 kills were in P-40N #40 "Tommy's Dad" named after his son. His P-51B was also #40 s/n 43-7060 "Tommy's Dad".
He was killed in P-80A s/n 44-85053 from the 445th FS.

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Don't touch my junk!!

I HAVE "PAPPY'S" RCAF RECORDS AND THERE IS NO INDICATION HE SERVED WITH 403 OR THAT HE EVEN WENT OVERSEAS.

I ASSUMED THE AIRCRAFT "TOMMY'S DAD" WAS NAMED FOR HIS SON AND THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN FROM HIS FIRST UNION AS HE WAS MARRIED TO A CALIFORNIA SOCIALITE THE DAY BEFORE HE DIED ON JULY 4, 1946!

ROBIN OLDS FELT THAT THE PRESSURE OF THE WEDDING AND HIS DOING THE DISPLAY THE NEXT DAY COMPLETELY OVERWHELMED HIS SENSES.

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF HIS PILOT'S LOG BOOK IS IN EXISTENCE AS THIS WORLD CLEAR UP THE MYSTERY OF THE 109 KILL MARKING!

CHEERS,
TOM WALSH.

There's 3-4 different books giving reference to it.
One said France and the others said Malta/Med.
Did you have all the logs or did he start a new one ???
Charlie Cook had told me that Herbst was adament
about downing a ME-109 in the RCAF.

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!

I DO NOT HAVE HIS PILOT LOG BOOK - I WISH I DID! THAT IS WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION "DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE IT IS?"

WHAT I HAVE IS HIS RCAF TRAINING SERVICE RECORD. WHEN HE ENLISTED IN VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA ON MAY 16, 1941, A PAPER TRAIL WAS STARTED WHICH RECORDED WHERE HE WENT AND WHAT HE DID.

HE RESIGNED HIS COMMISSION AS A PILOT OFFICER ON MAY 19, 1942 (AFTER HAVING SERVED ONE YEAR AND THREE DAYS) AS AN INSTRUCTOR AT NO. 1 SERVICE FLYING TRAINING SCHOOL (SFTS), CAMP BORDEN, ONTARIO.

"PAPPY" TRAINED IN BRANDON, MANITOBA, REGINA, SASKATCHEWAN, GODERICH, ONTARIO, ST. HUBERT, QUEBEC, TRENTON, ONTARIO AND CAMP BORDEN, ONTARIO.

DURING WORLD WAR II ALL MILITARY PERSONNEL SHIPPED OVERSEAS LEFT FROM ONLY ONE EMBARKATION POINT - "Y" DEPOT, PIER 21, HALIFAX, NOVA SCOTIA.

HIS RCAF RECORDS FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN OTTAWA ARE PRECISE AND THERE IS NO RECORD THAT J. C. HERBST LEFT CANADA IN AN RCAF UNIFORM.

HE JOINED THE USAAF THE SAME DAY, MAY 19, 1942, AND WAS RATED A PILOT WITH 368 HOURS AND 15 MINUTES RECORDED IN HIS LOG BOOK. THIS WAS AUDITED BY THE USAAF AND WAS BROKEN DOWN AS FOLLOWS:

PRE-RCAF - 35 HOURS 20 MINUTES - CIVILIAN TIME;

RCAF - 297 HOURS 50 MINUTES - SINGLE ENGINE - FLEET FINCH, HARVARD (AT-6) AND YALE (BT-9);

RCAF - 35 HOURS 45 MINUTES - TWIN ENGINE - AVRO ANSON AND LOCKHEED VENTURA.

THERE WAS NO TIME FOR HIM TO GO OVERSEAS BETWEEN TRANSFERRING FROM ONE SERVICE TO ANOTHER. IF HE DID WIND UP IN THE ETO OR MTO, THEN IT WAS IN A USAAF UNIFORM AND THAT INFORMATION NEEDS TO BE VERIFIED.

CHEERS,
TOM WALSH.

I know you posted this message a long time ago but I recently came across it when I was trying to find information on Johnny Herbst. My dad was a friend of his in the U.S. air force and I have a lot of letters that he wrote to my father from china and locations behind Japanese lines. They detail flying missions and are pretty interesting. From about December 1942 until February 1944 Pappy Herbst worked with my dad in the Arctic Desert Topic Information Center - originally located in Eglin Field Fla. and eventually re-located to New York. They researched and put together survival and other publications for air force pilots. My dad left me some great written memoirs about his exploits and friendship with Pappy Herbst during that time.

Hi everyone, new here and found the site while looking for information on John Herbst. The reason I am researching him is that I have his A-2 flight jacket from WWII that I acquired through a member of his family recently. It's in great shape and has his name, rank and hometown written in ink on the lining.

Thank you
Stony

"Stars and Bars", the book about American aces has Herbst as going overseas with the RCAF and then transferring to the USAAF there. Supposedly he had a victory over an Me-109, but there is no verification of that, even though there are photographs of his plane showing a swastika. The interesting thing is that his first victory in the CBI was in a P-51B, his next four victories are in a P-40N and the remaining 13 victories are in a P-51B again. Unusual to say the least.

The photograph of him in the "American Fighter Aces" album shows the swastika on the side of his P-51B, but mentions nothing of it in the bio.

For those of you interested in Pappy Herbst, I have started a new web site in his honor (www.pappyherbst.com). I'm afraid it's still a work in progress, but there is a lot of information there. Pappy was my grandfather, and Ida his first wife and my grandmother, sent me most of his things just before she died. Anyone who has information they think would be appropriate for the website please let me know.

Many will no doubt wonder about my name. "Tommy", my father, was adopted by his stepfather and became Tommy Rambo.

Thanks to all,

William Rambo

brambo:

Welcome to WIX.

If you will send me a personal message with your mailing address, I will forward a copy of the article I did on J.C. Herbst.

It sounds like you have a great deal more information I could use in a rewrite.

Cheers,

Tom Walsh.