B-17s in the Memphis Belle movie .....

[Fortress Fan]

Historically speaking....does anyone know if the B-17 names in the movie Memphis Belle were indeed in the exact same names in that squadron back then?

No, All the names were made up, I was there on the Sally B crew and one of the artists asked for my mothers name, and then added 'Sweet Maureen' to the nose, happy memories in the summer of '89

[CoastieJohn]

Historically speaking....does anyone know if the B-17 names in the movie Memphis Belle were indeed in the exact same names in that squadron back then?

No, All the names were made up, I was there on the Sally B crew and one of the artists asked for my mothers name, and then added 'Sweet Maureen' to the nose, happy memories in the summer of '89

Ahh...thanks mate. I guess it was artistic license. I was curious how they knew which names to use for the nose art. I thought maybe they had some old, original Memphis Belle pics with other planes parked in the area and were historically correct.

[Holedigger]

With all the footage shot for the Documentary film, "The Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress" it should have been relatively easy to have correct markings for other forts that flew with "The Belle", but Hollywood isn't usually interested in silly things like historic accuracy.

[the330thbg]

With all the footage shot for the Documentary film, "The Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress" it should have been relatively easy to have correct markings for other forts that flew with "The Belle", but Hollywood isn't usually interested in silly things like historic accuracy.

True, mate..they don't care about the lot of us who groaned when the X-wing Deathstar sequence was going on the big screen and we 'geek's looked at eachother and said 'HAY.., this is frikin "Dambusters"'!!!!

So why would they spend their pennies on a little background work and find a few aircraft names that actually flew with the 'Belle'?

[philatthepub]

To further answer CoastieJohn’s and Holedigger’s posts,

The movie script for the dramatisation of the “Memphis Belle” documentary had been approved by the surviving members of the original “Memphis Belle’s” crew, and so using the names of the other real B-17s that flew alongside the original “Memphis Belle” would have meant having to contact more veterans to approve the script. Also the real “Memphis Belle’s” 25th mission wasn’t that eventful and so a couple of fictitious aircraft were needed to meet the requirements of the movie script and be shot down.

The original B-17Fs of the 324th Bomb Squadron, 91st Bomb Group, used the Squadron Codes DF-A to H, while the fictitious B-17s in Memphis Belle used the Squadron codes DF-M to X and had fictitious serial numbers that were outside of the B-17F production blocks so as not to clash with the original aircraft. However this rule wasn’t always adhered to as with the pressures of filming corners were sometimes cut, for example, by quickly changing an A to a H.
A number of fictitious nose arts were created in a similar style to renowned 91st bomb group artists Tony Starcer, Charlie Busa and Jack Gaffney. “Windy City’s” nose art was possibly based on a stateside training B-17F, 41-24519 “Miss Barbara” which is probably based on a Varga/Esquire centrefold, while “Buckaroo’s” is quite similar to the 401st Bomb Squadron’s B-17F LL-M “Ramblin’ Wreck”

As shown in Peter’s superb photos, the six identities originally created for the script were
www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Memphis_Belle.pdf

DF-A 124485 “Memphis Belle” (carried by N3703G, whose markings were largely authentic though with more elaborate titling)
DF-M 22960 “Windy City” (carried by G-BEDF, representing a new Douglas built replacement B-17F being flown by an experienced lead crew)
DF-S 25703 “Mother and Country” (carried by F-AZDX, representing a new Vega built replacement B-17F being flown by a fresh rookie crew)
DF-U 124292 “Baby Ruth” (carried by F-BEEA, representing a Boeing built group original aircraft that had fallen behind “Memphis Belle” in missions)
DF-X 124299 “C-cup” (carried by N17W, representing another Boeing built group original aircraft that had fallen behind “Memphis Belle” in missions)
DF-P 229451 “Mama’s Boys” (Not used at Duxford, but carried by both F-AZDX and N3703G at Binbrook. Representing a new Boeing built replacement aircraft)

Towards the end of filming the aerial scenes at Duxford, these identities were painted out and markings modified to represent different aircraft, and in some cases I don’t believe they were reapplied after the aircraft had arrived at Binbrook for the ground scenes. I’ll do another posting concerning the filming of the ground scenes at Binbrook and swapping of identities between aircraft tomorrow.


By cross referencing “Plane Names and Fancy Noses” by Ray Bowden and “Fortresses of the Big Triangle First” by Cliff Bishop, it’s possible to build up a list of other B-17Fs that probably flew alongside the “Memphis Belle” during her 25 missions.

Original 324th Bomb Squadron B-17Fs
DF-A 41-24485 “Memphis Belle” Ret USA June 43
DF-B 41-24480 “The Bad Penny” To AFSC, Sal Oct 44
DF-C 41-24490 “Jack the Ripper” MIA 22 Feb 44, (last group original lost)
DF-D 41-24504 “The Sad Sack” Ret USA Mar 44 (41 missions)
DF-E 41-24505 “Quitchurbitchin” Ret USA Mar 44 (was a hanger queen for about a year, and after repairs was loaned to the 401st Bomb Squadron, ref “Lightning Strikes” by Andy Hartles)
DF-F(?) 41-24503 “Pandora’s Box” MIA 23 Nov 42 (With 324th Squadron Commander)
DF-G 41-24506 “The Shif’less Skonk” C/L 23 Nov 42
DF-H 41-24515 “Jersey Bounce/Marie Jane” MIA 21 May 43
DF-Y 41-24527 “The Great Speckled Bird” MIA 17 Aug 43 (Part of the 401st Bomb Squadron’s original compliment, transferred to the 324th)

Captain Robert Morgan flew 19 missions in “Memphis Belle” during his bomb tour, he also flew in DF-B “The Bad Penny”, DF-H “Jersey Bounce / Marie Jane” and DF-Y “The Great Speckled Bird”.

Replacement B-17Fs assigned to the 324th Bomb Squadron that also probably flew alongside “Memphis Belle”
DF-E 42-2970 “Conneticut Yankee” C/L 6 Sept 43 (“Memphis Belle’s” co-pilot James Verinis’ Aircraft)
DF-F 42-3031 “Nitemare” MIA 26 July 43
DF-Z 42-3053 “Desperate Journey” MIA 21 May 43
DF-G 42-5069 “Our Gang” MIA 17 Aug 43
DF-K 42-5370 (unnamed) MIA 4 Mar 43 (1 week with group)
DF-J 42-5857 (unnamed) MIA 21 May 43 (1 month with group)
DF-K 42-29487 “Ritzy Blitz” MIA 11 Jan 44
DF-L 42-29537 (unnamed) MIA 28 Mar 43 (3 weeks with group)
DF-H 42-29895 “The Black Swan” MIA 31 Dec 43
DF-Z 42-29921 “Oklahoma Okie” MIA 31 Dec 43
“Memphis Belle” was replaced by DF-A 42-29837 “Lady Luck” which returned to the USA in 1944 via North Africa.

Again, I’ll do a posting about filming “Memphis Belle” at Binbrook tomorrow.

With thanks

Phil
Surrey, UK

[Speedy]

To further answer CoastieJohn’s and Holedigger’s posts,

The movie script for the dramatisation of the “Memphis Belle” documentary had been approved by the surviving members of the original “Memphis Belle’s” crew, and so using the names of the other real B-17s that flew alongside the original “Memphis Belle” would have meant having to contact more veterans to approve the script. Also the real “Memphis Belle’s” 25th mission wasn’t that eventful and so a couple of fictitious aircraft were needed to meet the requirements of the movie script and be shot down.

The original B-17Fs of the 324th Bomb Squadron, 91st Bomb Group, used the Squadron Codes DF-A to H, while the fictitious B-17s in Memphis Belle used the Squadron codes DF-M to X and had fictitious serial numbers that were outside of the B-17F production blocks so as not to clash with the original aircraft. However this rule wasn’t always adhered to as with the pressures of filming corners were sometimes cut, for example, by quickly changing an A to a H.
A number of fictitious nose arts were created in a similar style to renowned 91st bomb group artists Tony Starcer, Charlie Busa and Jack Gaffney. “Windy City’s” nose art was possibly based on a stateside training B-17F, 41-24519 “Miss Barbara” which is probably based on a Varga/Esquire centrefold, while “Buckaroo’s” is quite similar to the 401st Bomb Squadron’s B-17F LL-M “Ramblin’ Wreck”

As shown in Peter’s superb photos, the six identities originally created for the script were
http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Memphis_Belle.pdf

DF-A 124485 “Memphis Belle” (carried by N3703G, whose markings were largely authentic though with more elaborate titling)
DF-M 22960 “Windy City” (carried by G-BEDF, representing a new Douglas built replacement B-17F being flown by an experienced lead crew)
DF-S 25703 “Mother and Country” (carried by F-AZDX, representing a new Vega built replacement B-17F being flown by a fresh rookie crew)
DF-U 124292 “Baby Ruth” (carried by F-BEEA, representing a Boeing built group original aircraft that had fallen behind “Memphis Belle” in missions)
DF-X 124299 “C-cup” (carried by N17W, representing another Boeing built group original aircraft that had fallen behind “Memphis Belle” in missions)
DF-P 229451 “Mama’s Boys” (Not used at Duxford, but carried by both F-AZDX and N3703G at Binbrook. Representing a new Boeing built replacement aircraft)

Towards the end of filming the aerial scenes at Duxford, these identities were painted out and markings modified to represent different aircraft, and in some cases I don’t believe they were reapplied after the aircraft had arrived at Binbrook for the ground scenes. I’ll do another posting concerning the filming of the ground scenes at Binbrook and swapping of identities between aircraft tomorrow.


By cross referencing “Plane Names and Fancy Noses” by Ray Bowden and “Fortresses of the Big Triangle First” by Cliff Bishop, it’s possible to build up a list of other B-17Fs that probably flew alongside the “Memphis Belle” during her 25 missions.

Original 324th Bomb Squadron B-17Fs
DF-A 41-24485 “Memphis Belle” Ret USA June 43
DF-B 41-24480 “The Bad Penny” To AFSC, Sal Oct 44
DF-C 41-24490 “Jack the Ripper” MIA 22 Feb 44, (last group original lost)
DF-D 41-24504 “The Sad Sack” Ret USA Mar 44 (41 missions)
DF-E 41-24505 “Quitchurbitchin” Ret USA Mar 44 (was a hanger queen for about a year, and after repairs was loaned to the 401st Bomb Squadron, ref “Lightning Strikes” by Andy Hartles)
DF-F(?) 41-24503 “Pandora’s Box” MIA 23 Nov 42 (With 324th Squadron Commander)
DF-G 41-24506 “The Shif’less Skonk” C/L 23 Nov 42
DF-H 41-24515 “Jersey Bounce/Marie Jane” MIA 21 May 43
DF-Y 41-24527 “The Great Speckled Bird” MIA 17 Aug 43 (Part of the 401st Bomb Squadron’s original compliment, transferred to the 324th)

Captain Robert Morgan flew 19 missions in “Memphis Belle” during his bomb tour, he also flew in DF-B “The Bad Penny”, DF-H “Jersey Bounce / Marie Jane” and DF-Y “The Great Speckled Bird”.

Replacement B-17Fs assigned to the 324th Bomb Squadron that also probably flew alongside “Memphis Belle”
DF-E 42-2970 “Conneticut Yankee” C/L 6 Sept 43 (“Memphis Belle’s” co-pilot James Verinis’ Aircraft)
DF-F 42-3031 “Nitemare” MIA 26 July 43
DF-Z 42-3053 “Desperate Journey” MIA 21 May 43
DF-G 42-5069 “Our Gang” MIA 17 Aug 43
DF-K 42-5370 (unnamed) MIA 4 Mar 43 (1 week with group)
DF-J 42-5857 (unnamed) MIA 21 May 43 (1 month with group)
DF-K 42-29487 “Ritzy Blitz” MIA 11 Jan 44
DF-L 42-29537 (unnamed) MIA 28 Mar 43 (3 weeks with group)
DF-H 42-29895 “The Black Swan” MIA 31 Dec 43
DF-Z 42-29921 “Oklahoma Okie” MIA 31 Dec 43
“Memphis Belle” was replaced by DF-A 42-29837 “Lady Luck” which returned to the USA in 1944 via North Africa.

Again, I’ll do a posting about filming “Memphis Belle” at Binbrook tomorrow.

With thanks

Phil
Surrey, UK

I haven't seen the 'original' Memphis Belle in many moons...but something in the back of my mind says that there was a shot (and mentioned by the narrator) of a B-17 called "Old Joe" that had a cartoon of a WWI soldior's face with the old-style helmet?

[mustangdriver]

Yeah, "Old Bill". 305th Bomb Group. you could make a movie about that plane as well.

[tulsaboy]

Phil-

This is intended as an honest question, not an attempt to pick a fight- but I think one comment you made at the beginning of your post invites a discussion... you mentioned that the reason the reason imagined names/identities were used for the MB's companion aircraft was " using the names of the other real B-17s that flew alongside the original “Memphis Belle” would have meant having to contact more veterans to approve the script." I guess my question is, "Why?" The movie was fun, and was fun to watch. I have my DVD, and have worn out previous copies. That being said, it is just a general effort at telling the most important element of the story of the MB-it was one of the first to fly 25 missions, and the first to return home. Other than that, the movie took a liberal interpretation of a composite of a bunch of stories to make a more entertaining movie. That being said, why would the producers/writers have needed any veteran approval of the script to make the movie? Even from a copyright/trademark perspective concerning the nose art on the aircraft in question, there are ample precedents in law that allow for either derivitive works of art, or that allow historic recreations/re-enactments for the purpose of retelling history to a broader audience. I seriously doubt that the crew of, for instance, "Jersey Bounce" could have halted production or gained any sort of veto power over the script with the use of their aircraft's image as leverage. I just don't think in that context the vets or their representatives would have had any say over the script.

Again, I am not trying to start an argument- just looking for you to further explain your contention that veteran approval precluded the use of the actual names/identities of the MB's companion aircraft in the movie.

Thanks also for the detailed post. It was very informative!

kevin

[JDK]

'Old Bill' was a British cartoon character from Bruce Barnsfather from the Great War era, well known in the UK in the period ('Sad Sack' would be a US equivalent).

The reason for the fictitious surroundings to the Belle in the remake was to do with the tortuous legal and practical history of the film's development from idea to result.

Originally David Puttnam wanted to make a film about Bomber Command, but it wasn't technically practical, due to the paucity of RAF heavies availing in the right place and the issues of filming at night, followed by, I suspect, a lack of US funding. (Puttnam was a Brit working in the US at the time.) He hooked up with Catherine Wyler, daughter of William, the maker of the original Belle film, and the script moved to what was essentially a 'remake'. However they did not have the legal rights to the name 'Memphis Belle' at that stage and in the pre-shooting period the film was developed under another title - 'Southern Belle' IIRC. While all the other work was going on, the legal beagles managed to either get permission to re-use the original title and main aircraft name with a modern fictitious storyline, or - and you may guess as well - figured their liability was not an issue if they did so anyway.

That gells with 'philatthepub's excellent post explaining the hangover one step differentiation of the 'background' to what was a fictitious story using a headline real aircraft name.

It's worth noting for context that all the surviving Memphis Belle crew who were able to be found were invited to and attended a special screening offered by the filmmakers - so no brickbats to the legals based on my assumption above, please. They had otherwise done the right thing. Secondly, my sources are contemporary accounts with the '89 film, from media at the time, the PR company, and a Q&A post-screening at the British Film Institute with Puttnam and Wyler.

Regards,

[whistlingdeath77]

[mustangdriver]

The MBMA also played into the mix here as they are the ones that had to allow the name Memphis Belle to be used. It was at this time that the stipulation was placed by the MBMA to MARC that the "movie Belle" would be allowed to carry the MB name for the filming and for one year after. Also during this time it would always carry the fancy script nose art to identify itself as the movie plane. Despite contrary belief it was the MBMA that came to the NMUSAF and asked them to do something about the Tallichet Belle.

[the330thbg]

yah, I can not imagine they had to have the 'crew' sign-off on the movie or the script in order to make it. It was a publicity stunt.

[philatthepub]

Firstly, thank you to James K and Mustang Driver for answering Kevin’s post about the legal matters surrounding the “Memphis Belle” movie, they were definitely much better answers than I probably could have put together.

Back to the B-17s used in the film.

Peter, thank you so much for putting your photos of the filming of the Aerial Scenes at Duxford on Flickr.com. I saw “Memphis Belle” when I was 12 and have always been interested in the other B-17s featured in the film. About a year ago I was putting together a load of research to submit to Nigel Franklyn of http://www.kitsworld.co.uk in the hope that he might put together a model decal sheet for the aircraft featured in the film as I thought it was an interesting subject that hadn’t been covered by a model aircraft manufacturer before. Unfortunately your superb photos came a little late to be included, but with the pictures available on http://www.duxford-update.info Nigel managed to produce an awesome nose art decal sheet that covered the principle B-17s in the film.

s110605900.websitehome.co.uk/memphis-belle/index.htm
(cut and paste direct link for pictures)

Your mapping of the DNA of each aircraft is spot on, and as shown on the DVD “The other Stars of Memphis Belle”, the five B-17s had the identities and markings that they carried at Duxford painted over and modified prior to their arrival at Binbrook for the filming of the ground scenes and this resulted in a few identity swaps when some of the markings were reapplied at Binbrook.

- The role of “Memphis Belle” was mainly played by David Tallichet’s N3703G, but the battle damaged “Memphis Belle” at the end of the film is actually G-BEDF (look for the location of the DF loop tear drop on the underside of the aircraft).
- At Duxford, G-BEDF was used for the role of “Windy City”, but in the film it’s F-AZDX that’s seen thundering down the runway at Binbrook with the “Windy City” nose art.
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/b ... dycity.htm
- “ Baby Ruth” was originally played by F-BEEA at Duxford, but G-BEDF also carried the nose art and markings for “Baby Ruth” on her right (co-pilot’s) side.
- When seen in the hardstand beside “Memphis Belle” at Binbrook, it’s F-AZDX that’s carrying the markings for 229451 DF-P “Mama’s Boys”, but when seen later in the take off sequence, it’s actually N3703G that’s carrying the “Mama’s boys” nose art.
- N17W does appear as three different aircraft. Firstly as “Black Eyed Pea” (Nose art on the left side), following the Jeep with the checkered flag, then again as “Black Eyed Pea” (Nose art on the right side), then as Clooney Baby and finally as Buckaroo, which was the identity she carried when being used as the backdrop for the hangar dance scene.
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/oldstuff/belle/cloony.htm
- G-BEDF’s own “Sally B” nose art turns up at Binbrook painted on the right side of her nose with the Squadron code DF-Q (wide screen version), while “Gee Whiz” was a reworking of the “Windy City” nose art carried by G-BEDF at Duxford. The sharp eyed B-17 enthusiast can spot DF-O “Gee Whiz” in “Memphis Belle” when the Mustang escort turns up. (Let’s not go into the historical accuracy of the Mustangs here, but appreciate the superb Aerial combat scenes when they take on the Buchons).


Photographs of the filming of the ground scenes at Binbrook have been very hard to come by, and so could I make an appeal to anyone who was there to please upload any photos onto the web. Despite also locating “Belle and the Glory Boys- the making of Memphis Belle” and “After the Battle edition no. 69 – remaking Memphis Belle”, I’ve had a lot of trouble trying to confirm the squadron codes and markings carried by some of the B-17s while they were filming at Binbrook and would really appreciate any suggestions or photographic evidence, especially for the following.

N17W – Bob Richardson’s B-17F is seen carrying three different identities during the take off sequence.
“Black Eyed Pea”- Ken Ellis of Flypast magazine was particularly helpful as he kindly sent me a photocopy of the “Flying Memphis Belle B-17s” article which featured photographs from Herbert Watson and Patrick Bunce that suggested that N17W flew as 124249 DF-J when carrying the “Black Eyed Pea” nose art, but I can’t find any other pictures to support this.
“Clooney Baby” - Lord Puttnam and Stuart Craig put me in touch with Alan Tomkins who suggested that when flying as “Clooney Baby”, N17W carried the squadron code MJ-K and tail number 22656 to match one of the models built for the big line up in take off sequence.
“Buckaroo” – Despite being used as the backdrop for the hangar dance scene and featuring in the take off sequence, I haven’t been able to locate any photographic evidence of N17W that suggests the squadron codes and tail number she carried while flying as "Buckroo". This is particularly frustrating as it’s my favourite nose art in the film!

F-AZDX - The French B-17 briefly appears carrying the nose art “The Vacillating Virgin” during the take off sequence. I’ve only been able to make educated guesses as to what the squadron markings and tail number were, either DF-O 25709 or ZQ-X 22955, but if anyone can confirm this I would be extremely grateful.

I dread to think how much superb Aerial footage ended up on the editing room floor at the end of filming, but with a bit of luck one day maybe we'll be able to buy a double DVD disc set with a lot of bonus features.

With thanks

Phil
Surrey, UK

[B17news]

It would have been cool for the movie planes to do some photography over the Madingley cemetary. If there are any photos of that, I'd love to see them.

[Jerry O'Neill]

When Tallichet's B-17 arrived later that summer after filming, it had the name "Kathleen" in yellow script on the nose. Richardson's had no nose art.
Jerry