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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:54 pm 
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The central Arizona atmosphere tends to give less 'scale effect' than most places anyway.

The brightness of the colours shouldn't surprise us really. Camouflage doesn't automatically mean bland or drab. The USAAC found a rather vibrant purple to be an effective shade*, and the F/A-117 was supposed to be a mottle of cornflower blue, mauve and royal purple as the best camo for the mission**.

Back in the day when I did models for competitions, I got fed up with the paint chip and flat tyre crowd and did a Bf109G-6 'As Delivered' - RLM 76 overall, canvas covers on the canopy, engine, prop, wings and tyres, no markings save a chalked WkNr on the tail.


* Waterbased temporary paints - the purple tended to stain, so it was dropped.

** But black was determined to be more macho

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:52 pm 
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When in doubt about Luftwaffe camouflage and markings - and even when you're not: Listen to the (serious) modelers! :arrow: :wink:

As an historical aviation artist that tries my best to 'get it right' in a visual sense (markings, wear on the aircraft, etc.), I can tell you that much of my research material is based on the work done by and for the serious scale modeling community. I have collected a fair amount of primary source material over the years, but I'd say of my entire reference collection 80% of the secondary material likely had modelers in mind when the item was published - thank goodness for the modelers! Think of all the great rare photos and document cites we'd never see otherwise. From there, take a visit to Hyperscale.com and see what is being done. I dare say that if you have any historical markings question you'll find an answer - a good answer - with documentation. SOMEBODY - usually a serious modeler - will have spent years researching the topic in question and if they don't have an immediate answer they will know where to find it. When I did two paintings of Oblt. Georg Schott's Fw 190 A-6 "Weiss 11" of 1./JG 1 I leaned heavily on photos in books produced for modelers, decal sheets produced by Jerry Crandall - one of the world's leading researchers on Luftwaffe paint and markings, JG 1 models built by experts, discussions about the subject all over the web on sites frequented by modelers, etc. That being said, the secondary - and sometimes the primary - reference cites can disagree, so you have to gather up as much as you can and then sift through and eventually arrive at a "conclusion", which in my case ends up on canvas. I hope the FHC has done the same here with this paint job. It's "bright", but as one person pointed out, use it like as it was originally and in short order you'll have the look some are after. I have an extensive collection of photos of Don Gentile's famous P-51B "Shangri-La". Right before she was pranged photos show that she was worn, dirty, panels repainted, and chipped to the nines ... and the airframe had been on active service less than two months! :shock:

It's always the details - Steve Atkin saw my JG 1 paintings here on WIX a while back and asked me if he could show the images to Jerry as a possible markings scheme for his 190. Jerry liked the paintings ("Most Dangerous Game" and "Deelen Wolves"), and once the decision was made I was able to work with Steve to aid the accuracy of the painting through my materials and my research. I spent quite a bit of time defining, for example, the exact outlay of the black and white checks on the cowling, seemingly an easy thing to get right, but IIRC Steve's crew was going to do it wrong and it was only through my own efforts to get my painted-image cowlings right that I caught them in a small but critical mistake. The gorgeous result as we have seen here in a recent WIX thread speaks for itself. All made possible through the research efforts of modelers and those who cater to them. Guys like Lynn Ritger know what the hell they are talking about - listen to them.

That's the Luftwaffe - it's often been said in aviation art circles that US WWII subjects, and 8th Air Force in particular, have been "done to death", "overdone", "boring", "market is saturated", "nothing new to depict", blah blah blah. Shoot - even with the metric tons of 'coverage' on the subject, I'll bet I can come up with a few good questions about the markings of any famous/well-known fighter group that you can't answer with 'certainty' based on the general information out there. The markings of the WWII 8th AF is a complex and interesting subject - in addition to the thousands of stories I have left to paint (Lord, I'm gonna need a tour-extension to my originally assigned lifespan)! Individual squadrons and individual aircraft markings often varied considerably from the published regs. THAT makes such a 'done to death' subject interesting as heck to me. I feel like a detective every time I pick an 8AF plane to paint. My recent thread here on WIX concerning the black, or were they midnight blue ... no, wait - purplish black - 61st FS P-47Ms come to mind. Then ... wait for it ... were some 361st Mustangs field-painted blue? :lol: :axe: Where's my Tylenol ... ?! :Hangman:

Cheers!
Wade

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:21 am 
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Great post Wade! 10/10


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:20 am 
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Wade,

I'll admit that the modellers might know more than me, but by the same token, I have seen some pretty slapdash research on modelling forums recently, which I know to be wrong as a result of my interraction with 'real' aircraft.

Looking into archives can tell some of the story. It doesnt tell the story of the time the CO ordered a particular paint scheme off his own back. It doesnt tell the story of the paints mixed by hand to be approximately the right colour, as they ran out. Similarly, modellers always go to great lengths to reproduce things like invasion stripes to be all the same width, with a ruler, when we all know they were applied with a broom over one night.

I will always question anyone who tells me I am wrong - on the basis that you cant know everything. They may prove to be right, but I need to know they have exhausted all lines of enquiry on a particular subject rather than just quoting chapter and verse.

Anyway, I will claim, on behalf of the rest of the team, that we got the innards right. I cant speak for the outsides!



Bruce


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:48 am 
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Wade, I want to thank you, sincerely, for your eloquent defense of those of us who very much care about getting it right, and are willing to go that extra mile to uncover and understand the <b>context</b> behind a certain paint scheme or aircraft configuration. Honestly, there's nothing more irritating in this hobby than some jackwagon who thinks they know every-dam-thing about a particular subject and go to great lengths to demonstrate that alleged "knowledge"- as you well know, the usual result is they wind up looking like fools because they've focused too closely on one particular element, or have assumed the exception proves the rule. That applies to both modelers AND restorers... just because you're an outstanding mechanic does not automatically make you anything like an expert on Northern Front Luftwaffe operations, for instance.

What seems to have gotten lost in the 'sturm und drang' over the paint applied to WNr 1227 is any sense of context for the original paint scheme. Sure, you've got spectral analysis and so on and so forth, but did anyone try to go above the micro level, and look at the possible provenance of those paints? As Kari Lumppio posted on HS yesterday, just knowing the chemical basis of those paints would have led a knowledgeable researcher down the correct path- for example, French paints were based on cellulose lacquer, while German paints used a phenolic resin base. And once you had such info in hand, at that point you start looking at what colors in those ranges might've been available (either via normal Luftwaffe stocks- such as RLM 61 and 62- or via captured paint stocks from French or Russian supply depots). You would also then start making queries among people with an established track record of accuracy and expertise in that particular operational theatre- where did this plane come from originally, did it possibly belong to another unit and transfer in with those colors? What were the movements of the parent unit before the loss of the plane- were they busy jumping from one field to another (suggesting there wouldn't be much time to do a full repaint in the field), or were they based at a large field like Rjelbitzy or Siwerskaja which had full depot facilities available? And you expand your search outward- are there other, similar examples of this aircraft from this unit around this time frame? What did they look like?

Once you've identified all of this, THEN you can make a relatively educated guess as to the actual appearance of the aircraft during the war, and you will be able to easily defend that decision by explaining the "who/what/when/where/why" you've uncovered in your research. And frankly, in all this back-and-forth, I don't think we've heard ANYTHING about how the colors in this scheme were chosen. If all that was done, and this is the result of that research, then so be it- personally, I'm very open to learning new things, because there is ALWAYS something new to learn in Luftwaffe research. But if you can't provide anything better than "Well, we ran it through the spectrometer and guessed at what it was originally", then there are going to be serious questions as to just how accurate those colors actually are.

I think it's fair to say that the majority of us modelers look up to you guys in the restoration biz. It's not an easy thing to get an A & P license, and it's a damned tough field in which to secure gainful employment- sure, there's volunteer positions, and I know lots of fellow modelers who gladly sweep floors at museums and in collections around the world, just so they can be close to the aircraft we all mutually love and appreciate. We often wish we could be in your place, to have the chance to wrench on a 109 or Fw 190 or Spitfire or what have you. And we can learn an awful lot from you about the mechanical design and functionality of these aircraft.

But whether you want to admit it or not, you guys can learn a lot from us as well. We do this because we LOVE it, and it's frequently the only way we can contribute to the wider goal of preserving the history of these aircraft and the men who flew, fought and died in them. Don't dismiss our input out of hand- it's easy enough to separate the wheat from the chaff with just a little bit of digging, when it comes to determining who to listen to, and who to politely thank and send on their way. Just bear in mind we ALL have the same major goal in mind- we ALL want to see things done right, and the frustration we modelers feel when something seems "off" is much the same as you might feel looking at a plane at an airshow being held together with pop-rivets and duct tape. So instead of getting defensive and suggesting we don't know what the eff we're talking about, maybe you should take a step back, admit there's someone who might know more about WWII camouflage applications than yourself, and LEARN from them. Most of us are more than happy to share what we know.

Cheers,

Lynn


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:55 am 
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Lynn,

You clearly represent those who carry out proper research; not everyone does as you well know. I stand by my comment of seeing some 'slapdash' efforts on internet forums lately.

Its my belief, though I have no paperwork to prove this, that there were a number of types of paint used by the Luftwaffe, but there are many things in play here:

Firstly, the original scheme was hugely faded from the original - nearly all of the Russian Front camouflage had faded away, leaving, in the main, the factory primer, with the DG+HO codes.

Looking at the original pictures shown on the HS thread, it would be difficult indeed to base any sort of scheme on what can be seen to remain. The fuselage skins on the aircraft are, on the whole the originals, with all of the original paint removed. They told no particular story when stripped - very, very faded!

We are basing all our observations on one small picture of an aircraft fresh out of the paint shop, pictured from behind. Its not a good picture, and I dont think we're seeing the true colours; especially as its taken in one of the 'brighter' parts of the world!

I think patience is called for - as I said before, fly it up to Seattle, and, when it gets there, take a picture before anyone cleans it. It will look completely different!



Bruce


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:16 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Lynn,

I think patience is called for - as I said before, fly it up to Seattle, and, when it gets there, take a picture before anyone cleans it. It will look completely different!

Bruce


I hope someone gets the chance to do that. It would be very interesting to see the differences.

Tim

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:59 pm 
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To think a small picture in the bright Arizona sun has caused such controversy is amazing. All you have to do is look at FHC's P-51 and see the level of detail they require. Enough said.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:32 pm 
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lmritger wrote:
shrike wrote:
Fly it 6-8 hours every day, never put it in a hangar, drag dusty covers, tarps and pine branches over it whenever it isn't flying and it will look 'authentic' in no time.


I like the cut of your jib. :)


Me too :D :D.

I can admire the dedication in getting the colours right though. Always interesting to compare the commentry in 2011 with the original paint applied in the field by some cold and disinterested schwarzmann Back then all without the aid of spray booths, WPHS clothing, extractor fans, etc etc :D :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Looks like the Flug Werk FW-190 stuff is for sale. Anyone have more info? (are they
pulling out of the business or just selling off the FW-190 stuff?).

Bela P. Havasreti

Saw this on Barnstormers today:

FW 190 THE WORLD'S ONLY SOURCE • BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY OFFERED • Absolutely singular chance. After having
built 21 FW 190's we are terminating the project and offer our vast inventory of related tools, jigs, drawings and manufacturing
rights. Continue the program with an American powerplant and build your own world wide unique aircraft manufacturing business.
Please inquire with full letterhead. Contact Claus Colling - FLUG WERK GMBH, Owner - located Gammelsdorf, Germany
Telephone: +49-8766-939 878 Fax: +49-8766-939 879 +49-8766-1351 Posted January 28, 2011


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Saturated the (limited) market and moving on to something else now?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:10 pm 
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snj-5 wrote:
Looks like the Flug Werk FW-190 stuff is for sale. Anyone have more info? (are they
pulling out of the business or just selling off the FW-190 stuff?).

Bela P. Havasreti



I think they still have their new-build P-51 "Palamino" project and a restoration business on the side.

I'm fairly confident that the Fw190s will live on in various reincarnations, probably (hopefully) for a few long-nose and maybe original dataplate rebuilds. A job well done on resurrecting this type.

Maybe they have something new to surprise us with.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:42 pm 
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So does this mean they're no longer providing after-sales support to existing customers?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Another new shot has been released by FHC on their facebook page. I'm definately looking forward to seeing it fly around here this summer.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:24 pm 
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The paint colors and cut lines and detail are a odd at best
Not history but someones idea of it....


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