HAF F4U-5NL project 1978. Need Tulio's help.

[ronl]

Hi Everyone,

Great pictures covering the restoration of this aircraft. I look forward to watching the progress of this restoration and seeing more pictures. On page 4 of this thread, there is a picture that shows one of the 20mm cannon ammuniton boxes (green) on a bench. Are there any more pictures that might show some detail of this box, or the other three boxes that sit in the wing (and become part of the top of the wing)? The boxes for the right wing are painted green, while the boxes that go in the left wing are painted red (as stated in the E&M Manual for the F4U-5).

I hope someone has some pictures that they might be able to post. Thanks.

Ron

[zorro7]

Ozyfuryfan:

Good day!!

We'll send you a close up in 72 Hrs or less of an Id plate located in the aft section R/S as you open the battery compartment. You have to see the picture and precise location to see it, because it may be covered with several layers of paint. Our FAH 609 Buno 124715 still has it place after all these years. Yours should read Buno 123168!!

Merry Christmas and the very best for you & yours in 2011 also!!

Last edited by zorro7 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

[zorro7]

Astixjr/Ozyfuryfan:

Happy 2011!!

We strongly believe that the former F4U-5N FAH 603 Buno 123168 is the sample now under final restoration in Australia.

We'll wait for the findings of Ozyfuryfan RS aft id mod plate and the pic of the poss plate still installed in F4U-5N Buno 122179/124493 XFAH 604 in the U.S to compare notes!

p.s The pic included is the R/S aft id plate at the radio compartment/battery access panel area in F4U-5NL Buno 124715 FAH 609!!

[OZFURYFAN]

Hi all,happy new year,I finally got to the data plate indicated by Zorro 7 and it shows the serial no A10-353,which I believe may convert to 123618,can Zorro confirm this with any certainty??Guess there is no guarantee that the front & rear sections are the matching originals either so is there a data plate located somewhere in the cockpit or fwd fuselageto confirm that the two match,I haven't found one yet?Tried to post a pic but they are too large,cheers,Pete

[Rob Mears]

Yep, that's BuNo.123168.

The Bureau Number production groups for this segment of the F4U-5N production is as follows...

122175 - 122206 (32 planes)
123144 - 123203 (60 planes)

The manufacture (serial) number for BuNo.122189 is '311'. If you do the math, you'll find that serial number '353' matches perfectly to BuNo.123168. There ya go - ID confirmed!

Rob

[OZFURYFAN]

Hi Rob,it places us in an interesting position though,I looked at the registry last night and 123168 already exists with Jim Read albeit with parts from another -5 so its kind of difficult to register an aircraft in one country when its already registered and flying in another.This is why I wondered whether the Corsairs were broken down to the mid fuse production joint coming out of Honduras and the mix of front & rear structure could have happened then.Does the forward fuse have data plate besides the one suggested by zorro(on the firewall inside the tank bay)Best regards,Pete Bradley

[zorro7]

OZfuryfan:

Good Day and Happy 2011 to all of you too!!

Those are the best news for Jan-2011!! Thanks a lot.

Plz thank the NZ Air Museum folks for keeping good records and sharing 'em with us. Plz post a smaller pic of the mod plate if you can. Your aft section is the original aft section for that fuselage at the Honduran AF boneyard c. 1977. One detail still showing in your aircraft is the welding job done in the L aft panel below the horizontal stab.

The other part of this equation is to look for the same panel/mod plate in the current F4U-5N
Buno 122179.

[OZFURYFAN]

Hi Zorro,still doesn't answer my question re fwd fuse data plates ,why does the Read -5 still quote 123168 as the s/no if the major assemblies are here in Oz.Also not sure of the 'weld repair' on the rear fuse as the left side was replaced before I started on the project,can you direct me to a pic in this post that I might have missed,cheers,Pete

[OZFURYFAN]

Hi all again,after posting the above questions I went back & re read all the thread posts.Rob,at the bottom of page 1 you state that 123168 was unidentified but identified later after the repairs using the damaged corsair through your efforts with Glenn Wegman,can you recall how the identity isuue was resolved?Lone Eagle also suggests that 124493 was the basis for what is here now and there is some suggestion that 124493 was purchased purely as a trade.To cut a long story short I believe we have the rear fuse of 123168 here however the identity of the rest of it is as clear as mud!!! Either way it was good to go back & read all the posts,cheers again,Pete

[Rob Mears]

Rob,at the bottom of page 1 you state that 123168 was unidentified but identified later after the repairs using the damaged corsair through your efforts with Glenn Wegman,can you recall how the identity isuue was resolved?Lone Eagle also suggests that 124493 was the basis for what is here now and there is some suggestion that 124493 was purchased purely as a trade.To cut a long story short I believe we have the rear fuse of 123168 here however the identity of the rest of it is as clear as mud!!!

First, understand that Pete Thelen had all three of these planes in his possession at once (actually there was fourth, but that irrelevant for the purposes of this thread).

In short, Pete Thelen bought BuNo.124493 in about 80% restored condition but with no existing history or paperwork with the FAA. He would be starting from scratch trying to jump through hoops to get this airframe legally airborne. He also acquired a burnt out "parts plane" (BuNo.122179) which already had existing paperwork, extensive FAA records, documented flying history etc. Now if you were in that position, how might you go about getting your freshly restored Corsair back into the air with minimum hassles? Scavenge a few small parts and the identity from the parts plane and, voila! BuNo.124493 effectively becomes a "repaired" 122179. Such a thing was not a big deal back in the mid-1980s and was done a LOT with all kinds of warbirds. It was legitimate enough at the time to do so, and certainly no one could have imagined that the burnt out hulk of BuNo.122179 would eventually be under restoration to fly again in France 30 years later.

Now for BuNo.123168. This was the only Corsair to return from Honduras that was not readily identifiable. All others were accounted for (123168 was later identified through process of elimination & by referencing import documents). My best guess is that the owner used the known identity (data plate) left over from BuNo.124493 to help expedite the overseas shipment of BuNo.123168 to New Zealand. This would give them a serial number to put on the shipment documents that could be verified by physically referencing the plane's data plate. I can think of no other reason why they would have done so otherwise.

So as a recap - The existing registration from a wreck gets the best plane flying, and the verifiable identity (data plate) from that best plane is used to help ship an otherwise unidentifiable airframe overseas. This is in fact what happened physically. The reasons listed above as to why it happened are just my speculation - for what its worth.

Last edited by Rob Mears on Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[zorro7]

OZFuryFan:

Good day!!

While we clear the smoke of our puzzle Bunos plz tell us if you see any id plates/mod plates at the center section of the wing main spar?? Tks

All for now... while we do some more digging!!

[OZFURYFAN]

Hi Rob,thanks for the detailed response.I did not wish to stir up a hornets nest or insinuate odd practices when I asked the questions,just needed to know how the dice rolled!!I am wondering why if 124493 was 80% complete and 122179's ser/no was available how 123168 came to be listed as its new s/no.The warbird registry makes no mention of it. If the data plate for 124493 was used to provide proof of identity for shipment to N.Z where is the plate as it was not found on the aircraft & yes I do recall your statement regarding existing history.Now that the wreck of 122179 has a different owner but its provenance is known what occurrs when its rebuild is finished as the registry says its identity was transferred?Please understand I'm only asking this so I can give the aviation regulaters here a difinitive answer on the aircrafts identity so it can be given a registration,in the meantime I will have another look as suggested by Zorro on the main spar,hopefully there is a tag hidden away there. Once again sincere thanks for your time & explanation,best regards,Pete

[Rob Mears]

No problem. I was trying the be as succinct as possible, but its still hard to relate all of the facts in less that three or four paragraphs! When you have so many planes going into one hangar, then emerging in such a convoluted fashion with swapped identites, etc its a very confusing issue.

Just reviewing Albert Stix's photos of BuNo.124493, and photos of the real BuNo.122179 from the boneyard in Kissimmee, it can be logically concluded that both of those aircraft retained all of their original major components. There would be no reason to begin swapping major components on BuNo.124493 because the restoration of the fuselage was already complete. Likewise, a cursory inspection of BuNo.122179 at Kissimmee shows all of the original fuselage is present. By process of elimination, that would mean BuNo.123168 remained intact as well. I can't speak for the outer wing panels, but I don't think I've ever inspected any Corsair and found it wearing its factory original wings. For that reason, I don't put wing panels in the same category as the fore & aft fuselage sections when it comes to 'bean counting'. Wings seemed to have been swapped on a fairy common basis during active military service, and certainly during the post-military era.

It would certainly be interesting to study each and every component and data plate on the plane from the point of sheer curiousity, but I'm certain there was no swapping of major components between these three aircraft while they were in Mr. Thelen's possession.

It seems fairly obvious to me that John Mullen gathered all of the components from FAH-608 (BuNo.124493) since there were no other F4U-5 components remaining with Hollywood Wings (c1980) at the time he purchased the aircraft. This is confirmed in the detailed notes of another buyer who visited the site around that same time.

Terry Randall had purchased BuNo.123168 from the same site prior to that time, and though I can't find it in my notes, I'm fairly confident he told me he purchased all of the matching components that went with FAH-603 (BuNo.123168). The only other F4U-5 that it could possibly have been mix-matched with while in storage at Long Beach is BuNo.124447, which is now on display at a museum in Kansas. The chances of this are extremely slim, but I can look into it if you really want to be sure.

Oh, and as for the real BuNo.122179, I believe the current owner plans on registering the plane using its factory serial/manufacture number "301" rather than the Bureau Number just in case its sold back to the United States at some point in the future. I suggested they use "22179" to at least give a hint at the planes true provenance, but we'll see.

Well, I managed to drag on for five paragraphs again! Hope this helps

[zorro7]

OzyFuryFan:

Good Day!

Good luck with the main spar research project.

Also if you can plz send us a smaller picture of the data plate "A-10-353" as found by you. What color primer/paint is in your aft fuselaje when you unscrew it off??

Tks in advance

[OZFURYFAN]

Hi Rob,thanks again,hope you also got my pm.Zorro,just had a look at the data plate and it is screwed on,I will have to talk to the boss & see if it is ok to remove & photograph but he should be ok with that,if you send me your email address I can fwd them to you,have tried using the wix pm function but the pics are too big to send,must be time for a photobucket account!! cheers,Pete