P-40 and D-day stripes?

Shay · **Posted:** Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:58 pm

Any record of Tomahawk/Kittyhawk/Warhawks ever wearing D-Day invasion stripes?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

JDK · **Posted:** Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:13 pm

Shay wrote:

Any record of Tomahawk/Kittyhawk/Warhawks ever wearing D-Day invasion stripes?

Pretty definite 'no' to that. They my have worn other stripes - certainly there were white ident stripes in the Pacific (RNZAF for one) but the USAAF and RAF weren't operating P-40s in Northern / Western Europe in mid-1944. There were a few in testing duties at places like Boscombe Down, and there may have been a few Kittyhawk IIs still about in second line duties, so I'm wary of being categorical.

I'm sure there would've been one or two stateside with D Day stripes in the 1970s. :lol:

Dan Jones · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:44 am

Maybe some Army Cooperation machines, low level recce type, but have never seen a picture of one. Good question though.

Dan

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:58 am

2 Sqn (Army co op) RAF replaced their Lysanders with Kittyhawks, but these had all been replaced by Mustangs well before June '44.

Dan Jones · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:01 am

"A" models, or Mustang Mk 1's if I remember correctly, James? Those were the only P-40's I could think of.

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:46 am

Hopefully a proper P-40 expert will be along shortly!

Meantimes, these seem about right to me -

Quote:

At the outbreak of World War II the unit was flying Lysanders. In France until the Dunkirk evacuation, the squadron equipped with fighters - the Tomahawk in 1940, the Mustang in 1942 and Spitfire Mk 14s in 1944

In July 1944, assigned to the 2nd Tactical Air Force, II (AC) Sqn returned to France, and the reconnaissance role, with Spitfire PR Mk 11s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._2_Squadron_RAF

Quote:

With the arrival of a number of Tomahawks in August 1941, the squadron began to fly low level tactical reconnaissance missions over occupied France and the Low Countries. 1942 saw the Tomahawk and Lysander replaced by the Mustang. 1944 saw the squadron take part in the preparations for D-Day, surveying Hitler's Atlantic Wall.

Aircraft
September 1938-September 1940: Lysander I and Lysander II
September 1940-July 1942: Lysander III
August 1941-April 1942: Tomahawk I, IIA
April 1942-May 1944: Mustang I, Ia
May 1944-January 1945: Mustang II
November 1944-January 1951: Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIV

http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAF/2_wwII.html

AFAIK, these were the only front-line combat operations by P-40s in Northern (non Med) Europe. The RAF had a couple of later P-40 models at Boscombe for testing, as well.

Regards,

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:48 am

PS - you'll note I'm got my Tomma and Kittys mixed, and strickly speaking the P-40 designation isn't appropriate for RAF machines, being a USAAF designation.

Dave Smith · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:01 am

I agree with JDK - extremely unlikely, but with aircraft markings from that era you can never be entirely sure!

The Inspector · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:58 am

How about invasion stripes on the impressed, liason use Bf-108 TAIFUNS the British used during the war?

rcaf_100 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:01 am

JDK wrote:

AFAIK, these were the only front-line combat operations by P-40s in Northern (non Med) Europe. The RAF had a couple of later P-40 models at Boscombe for testing, as well.

Tomahawks were also used by 400, 403, 414, and 430 Squadrons RCAF, but it seems only 403 used them on operations for a brief time in 1941. All were replaced by Spitfires or Mustangs.

http://www.rcaf.com/Archives/archivesDe ... he-RCAF-13

:partyman:

LysanderUK · **Joined:** Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:01 pm **Posts:** 271

Weren't there a pair of P40's used as hacks by 8thAF senior staff? As I recall they were the only USAAF P40's to be based in the UK at any time during the war. Were these still flying by D-Day, and would they have required the stripes?

agent86 · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 3:57 am **Posts:** 926

My guess is that the only P-40's wearing invasion stripes were aircraft captured and flown by the germans.Actually,my guess is that the majority of P-40's being flown at this time in Europe were being flown by the Soviets. Another little known fact is that the Invasion stripes on Aircraft captured by the germans were exactly the opposite of the stripes on Allied planes.One set of stripes for the invaders and the exact opposite for the invadee's. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

JDK · **Posted:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:02 pm

Thanks for the correction rcaf_100.

LysanderUK wrote:

Weren't there a pair of P40's used as hacks by 8thAF senior staff? As I recall they were the only USAAF P40's to be based in the UK at any time during the war. Were these still flying by D-Day, and would they have required the stripes?

I believe there were a couple, but I very much doubt they'd have been allowed anywhere near the ops, and likewise not got stripes; the reason for the stripes being to avoid friendly fire incidents, and unusual types had to have a good reason to be in the area - such as the also obsolete Hawker Hurricanes with stripes used for dispatch and mail carrying.

Regards,

ColFord · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:35 am

Never believe everything you find on Wikipedia or some other webites.

No.II(AC) Squadron ("Shiny Two") had Westland Lysanders at the outbreak of War in September 1939. The proper Squadron title uses the roman numeral "II" rather than the arabic number "2" and includes (AC) being an Army Co-operation Squadron since foundation.

In June 1941 the Squadron started converting on to Curtiss Tomahawks, but still retained a number of Lysanders. It was not until September 1941 that the Squadron was considered 'operational' on the Tomahawk, with all pilots having undertaken the conversion, but many of the issues with the type not having been resolved. So much so that in December 1941 due to poor serviceability with the Tomahawks the Squadron had to use its remaining Lysanders in a major Army exercise.

On 26 March 1942 the Squadron commenced conversion onto the North American Mustang Mk.I. A number of Tomahawks were retained whilst the Squadron worked up on the Mustangs, and in that time a number of Tomahawks were lost to accidents. The Squadron's last Lysander was still on strength in July 1942. It was not until 14 November 1942 that the Squadron commenced offensive operations using the Mustang Mk.I. They received North American Mustang Mk.IA aircraft on 12 February 1944, swapping it's Mk.Is for No.168 Squadron's Mk.IAs. By that expedient, the two Mustang Squadron's in No.35 (Recce) Wing - No.II(AC) and No.268 Squadrons - were both equipped with the same mark of Mustang, whilst the Mustang Squadrons in No.34 and No.39 Recce Wings were equipped with Mustang Mk.I aircraft, simplifying servicing and logistics arrangements.

The Squadron started to introduce Mustang Mk.IIs (P-51As) in May 1944, but had not fully introduced them into service by D-Day, so had to borrow some Mustang Mk.IAs from No.268 Squadron during June 1944 to make up the numbers. By July 1944 the Mustang Mk.II had replaced the Mustang Mk.II as the Squadron's main aircraft.

The Squadron started to receive Supermarine Spitfire Mk.XIV aircraft on 1 November 1944. Initially they received the high backed variant and these progressively replaced the Mustang Mk.IIs so by mid January 1945 all the Mustang Mk.IIs had been passed to No.268 Squadron and the Spitfire Mk.XIV became the Squadron's main operational type. The Squadron's last operational sortie on the Mustang was on 17 January 1945. On 12 April 1945 the Squadron started to receive the first of the low-backed Spitfire FR.XIVe variants and by VE-Day these were the main type operated by the Squadron. In September 1945 the Squadron received a flight of Spitfire PR.XIs from the recently disbanded No.4 Squadron and these formed a high level PR flight. Shortly later Spitfire PR.XIXs would be received to replace the PR.XIs.

The Squadron History "Second to None" by Hans Onderwater is currently being revised and updated in preparation for the Squadron's Centenary in 2012.

Unfortunately a lot of the information on RAF Squadron's history and aircraft used on Wikipedia is rather flawed and that poor level of research and information used flows across to quite a number of other sites.

Best I can determine, in relation to Warhawks or Kittyhawks, at least in RAF service, maybe at best only a couple were in the UK around D-Day, used for trials purposes with A&AEE Farnborough and as such would not have worn the black and white invasion distinctive markings. By D-Day, most, if not all the remaining Curtiss Tomahawks remaining in RAF service in the UK had been retired and replaced by other types. After the main operational Squadrons had relinquished them for other types in 1942, they were passed to second line training units and to Anti Aircraft Co-operation Units, and some remained in service until late 1943 at the latest.

Regards,

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:47 am

Very extensive, Col, thanks. However it's not clear if you are saying if II (AC) Sqn used Tomahawks on actual operations?

Regards,

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P-40 and D-day stripes?

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