Rumor has it, another FW-190 has flown!

[JDK]

I added Hurricane because of the BBMF aircraft, currently airworthy.. IIRC, that crash landed and burned a few years back.
I'm guessing new wood and if the fire was bad/long enough, it would need new fuselage tubing. Im sure the BBMF would do a proper repair job and not use any structure that could be compromised.
While it may be well documented, it terms or orginal WWII-period factory airframe parts, I'd guess there isn't nuch left.

The BBMF operate two Hawker Hurricane Mk.II machines, LF363 and PZ865. LF had an in flight engine fire, and was safely put down by the pilot, who IIRC, sustained a broken ankle. It was restored by Historic Flying Ltd, and I saw the aircraft twice, early in the restoration and later on at Audley End. You would be surprised at how much was not replaced in the rebuild.

Of course in the world of aviation you seem to be able to get away with a lot more than you could if you were restoring cars.

Can you support that? IMHO, the history, rebuilds and provenance of all currently active front line W.W.II era aircraft is well documented (in fact they are all in one book - the Warbird Directory, which in most cases covers the occasions of rebuilds). I'm not familiar with the car business, but there are more cars, players, restorers and lower certification requirements for rebuilds - hence a much greater opportunity for fraud, or fiddled provenances.

It's only 100% original until you replace the first burned out dome light bulb, then it's a replica-

A complete myth, which regularly comes up here and elsewhere. 'Factory fresh' or 'brand new' is different to 'original'. In terms of museum artefact measures, changes that take place in service are part of the history of the artefact. Changes after entering preservation are part of it's preservation history, and do not have the value that the service history has.

It's a complex area, and any useful discussion has to start with precise definition and also cite specific examples. The historic car business has precise definitions of eras, and several court cases giving precedence for future cases on originality. The warbird business has neither, but that does not mean that the originality of machines isn't known.

Critically, the discussion here started with the difference between the replica Flug Werke machines which are 'look alike' Focke Wulfs and the first genuine Focke Wulf to fly for over 60 years. The difference and originality is clear. Muddling modern 'look-alike' replicas with carefully restored originals using original methods and parts is a disservice to the warbird industry that is aiming to achieve the highest standards, including safety, airworthyness and originality. Certainly the degree of original parts and 'recreation' in a restoration is important; just as is the effort to maintain original standards.

The place for true historic machines is in public trust in national collections, where the issues with replacing material and originality isn't driven by the desire to fly. There is also a place for replicas, and for active warbirds.

Regards,

[oz rb fan]

actually james in the historic car world you have a much harder time than aircraft in getting an original car through the authorities.
i'm restoring a former bathurst touring car and even though i can prove provenance i have to get the car inspected by approved people just to get the approval to restore it,then comes a whole other bunch of rules,it has to be completely in the condition that it raced at a particular event,no replacement of parts by non original parts and nothing modern that could alter the perormance.
and this is the lower end of the scale if you go up to things like finding a lost Ferrari 250 gto then the hoops you'd have to jump through would be incredible.
whereas warbirds seem to come from nowhere these day,for instance several FW190 seem to have taken original fw190 identities(including the possibility of the previously mentioned d model)

[JDK]

Interesting points on the car business, thanks.

whereas warbirds seem to come from nowhere these day,for instance several FW190 seem to have taken original fw190 identities(including the possibility of the previously mentioned d model)

Again there's a perception from amateur observers that this is the case, but I don't agree any warbirds are 'coming from nowhere', and nor are there many / any 'identity grafts' that are not known about.

Anyone currently confused between a Flug Werke machine and a Focke Wulf isn't paying attention. Future 'back re-engineering' may well bring a FW closer to Fw, but again, given the tiny numbers involved, keeping track isn't hard.

If you are able to buy a warbird, competent provenance advice can easily be found. If you want to track what's out there, the data's publicly available, it just need research, precision and the ability to note where certain statements of fact are missing.

However, maybe I'm lucky to be well informed.

Regards,

[oz rb fan]

your probably right James but i could swear that i read in one of our local aviation mags that had the full list of the FW190 production they listed several that had taken fw id's (but i could be wrong)as for turning up out of now where the new registration of a long tail p40f seems to come to mind up until recently it was thought that only 2 f models existed and they are both pacific veterans (though one is being converted to an e model look alike for the rnzaf museum).
but back on subject well done to Paul Allen and all the restorers for getting a real fw190 back in the air

[warbird1]

Now that the 190 has flown, does anyone have any updates on Allen's two other German aircraft - the Me 262 and the Fw 189? Is either one still currently being worked on? They both are supposed to fly, AFAIK.

[JägerMarty]

Fw190D's

There is at least 3 more Fw190D's as well as other aircraft types.

The Fw190D recovered in 1990 was a different identity to the one they were searching for even though it in the same small area of the Schwerinersee!!!!

When I was doing research for Axel Urbankes Fw190D book and the 2TAF, a couple of D-9s collided on May 1st 1945 and also Ostrowiski's D-9 which was lost on 17th April 1945? is still in there. There was also a pair of Buckmanns? that collided.

During the film survey they also spotted a silver finished aircraft with red star - MiG-15/17!!

Bad Zwischenahn has a pair of Bf110's - possibly recovered post war but thought still to be in the sediment.

Lots in there but German has a different ownership/salvage rules than say Austria.

So there is other original JG26 D-9's and other WWII aircraft to be found in Germany.

Have not even looked at Pauersee or Muritzersee.

Tempest V would be nice! - in fact any of the late war types.

Anyone got a fish finder and want to for a row across a few of these lakes?!!

From memory but you get the jist!

Mark

Very interesting Mark, the lakes are not very deep either are they? There must be loads of airframes in various states in the north German lakes and also the Polish ones. The Muritz see would be an obvious choice to look as well, and having the Rechlin aircraft testing station on its shores, the mind boggles
In fact if people want to find a Short Stirling they should probably investigate these lakes!

[warbird1]

I'm sure that video will surface. Just give it time.

[DoraNineFan]

Judging by past actions, Paul Allen and Company keep it close to their vest. At least for me, knowing a flight has been pulled off is good for now, and we'll know more soon enough. Lets hope they post something, anticipation is high. There may be a shake down phase to verify the 67 year old equipment and design is working. It might take some time to verify the engine performance, after all there aren't a lot of WWII German pilot and Focke Wulf/BMW engineers to talk to anymore. The BMW 801 radial engine's cooling and control design was complex, more so than what was on American equipment. IIRC, the engine throttle automatically controlled mixture and manifold pressure in a single control in the cockpit, a complex bit of design. Would be very interesting to hear from the engine restorers on this subject. Also, the oil cooling system and cooling fan was a complex design that may yet require additional work to sort out.

I recall from one of the project diary updates from the White 1 A-8 that Mike Nixon was bench-testing the kommandogerät from their BMW and that it passed all tests. So no doubt that a lot of work and research has gone into the engine restoration by Mike and company.

Last edited by DoraNineFan on Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[warbird1]

The BMW 801 radial engine's cooling and control design was complex, more so than what was on American equipment. IIRC, the engine throttle automatically controlled mixture and manifold pressure in a single control in the cockpit, a complex bit of design. Would be very interesting to hear from the engine restorers on this subject.

Ah yes, the infamous Kommandogerät. Here is a picture from White 1's website:

http://white1foundation.org/



For more info on this technologically advanced W.W. II version of a FADEC, MEC, EEC, ECU, or fuel control unit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf ... ger.C3.A4t

[Sutts]

I added Hurricane because of the BBMF aircraft, currently airworthy.. IIRC, that crash landed and burned a few years back.
I'm guessing new wood and if the fire was bad/long enough, it would need new fuselage tubing. Im sure the BBMF would do a proper repair job and not use any structure that could be compromised.
While it may be well documented, it terms or orginal WWII-period factory airframe parts, I'd guess there isn't nuch left.

The BBMF operate two Hawker Hurricane Mk.II machines, LF363 and PZ865. LF had an in flight engine fire, and was safely put down by the pilot, who IIRC, sustained a broken ankle. It was restored by Historic Flying Ltd, and I saw the aircraft twice, early in the restoration and later on at Audley End. You would be surprised at how much was not replaced in the rebuild.

Of course in the world of aviation you seem to be able to get away with a lot more than you could if you were restoring cars.

Can you support that? IMHO, the history, rebuilds and provenance of all currently active front line W.W.II era aircraft is well documented (in fact they are all in one book - the Warbird Directory, which in most cases covers the occasions of rebuilds). I'm not familiar with the car business, but there are more cars, players, restorers and lower certification requirements for rebuilds - hence a much greater opportunity for fraud, or fiddled provenances.

It's only 100% original until you replace the first burned out dome light bulb, then it's a replica-

A complete myth, which regularly comes up here and elsewhere. 'Factory fresh' or 'brand new' is different to 'original'. In terms of museum artefact measures, changes that take place in service are part of the history of the artefact. Changes after entering preservation are part of it's preservation history, and do not have the value that the service history has.

It's a complex area, and any useful discussion has to start with precise definition and also cite specific examples. The historic car business has precise definitions of eras, and several court cases giving precedence for future cases on originality. The warbird business has neither, but that does not mean that the originality of machines isn't known.

Critically, the discussion here started with the difference between the replica Flug Werke machines which are 'look alike' Focke Wulfs and the first genuine Focke Wulf to fly for over 60 years. The difference and originality is clear. Muddling modern 'look-alike' replicas with carefully restored originals using original methods and parts is a disservice to the warbird industry that is aiming to achieve the highest standards, including safety, airworthyness and originality. Certainly the degree of original parts and 'recreation' in a restoration is important; just as is the effort to maintain original standards.

The place for true historic machines is in public trust in national collections, where the issues with replacing material and originality isn't driven by the desire to fly. There is also a place for replicas, and for active warbirds.

Regards,

James,

I was aware that the Flug Werke machines deviated from the originals in the engine and systems department but I was under the impression that the structure was a painstaking reproduction to original specifications based on recovered material and the few plans available. If this isn't the case then I'm more than a little disappointed. Do you have any information on how the structural parts deviate from the original design please? Are we talking about things like inaccurate rivets or bigger issues like simplified internal structure or incorrect former profiles?

Although the Spits being produced by Historic Flying Ltd at Duxford can be largely reproduction, I know they go to great lengths to produce the parts to original specifications with original materials and methods. They have a huge library of original blueprints and other documents to support their operation. I have huge respect for these guys and the work they're producing is as close to original as possible. This is the way to go in my book.

Anyhow, fantastic to see this 190 fly. Even better to hear that it has original armament fitted. I'm grateful that we have guys like Paul Allen. I may never get to see the final product but just the knowledge that another historic airframe has been saved, restored to original specifications and cared for is enough for me.

[Jeff Nelson]

All,
The 190 was flown by Steve Hinton (a very nice gentleman, by the way...). The test flight was at GossHawk Unlimited in Casa Grande, AZ, not Seattle, Chino, or Tehachapi. Reps from the various participating companies were present. After multiple turns around the patch, Mr. Hinton did a fast, low pass down the runway. The sound of that BMW is unlike anything you may have heard. It was almost like a blend of a radial and a V12. It was indeed a sweet sound!

[dano]

I would like to make a comment about the original fw and flug werks 190, I am currently putting one together and sharing the hanger space with Mr. Allen’s original fw. In my opinion, the structure of the flug werk is as close to original as you can get. The most notable difference is the gear doors, while the size and shape are the same the original has stamped doors and the flug werk doors are single pieces that are cut and rolled. For the systems, if a owner of a flug werks wants to put in a original BMW 801 and the systems for it, he can. I can say that after seeing all work that went into the engine and systems for the original, it would not be practical for what I want to do, going to air shows and being active in flying the airplane, not even counting the cost and time. We used the original fw books to put the plane together, things like rigging the control systems and other systems are done per the original. My attitude about original and replicas is that I know of wrecks that were built in to flying airplanes using only the wreck as a template, or the restorations that used one wing rib, which is then called a rebuild.
I frankly don’t care, the fact that Paul Allen had the passion to restore a original fw is beyond belief, and unlike a mustang or spitfire , the engine and accessories for the fw are not available. which makes is more amazing. but what Flug werk did is amazing as well, we will now have fw 190’s flying at airshows, that should be what people care about. I can appreciated both the original fw and the flug werk

Dan Kirkland

[warbird1]

All,
The 190 was flown by Steve Hinton (a very nice gentleman, by the way...). The test flight was at GossHawk Unlimited in Casa Grande, AZ, not Seattle, Chino, or Tehachapi. Reps from the various participating companies were present. After multiple turns around the patch, Mr. Hinton did a fast, low pass down the runway. The sound of that BMW is unlike anything you may have heard. It was almost like a blend of a radial and a V12. It was indeed a sweet sound!

Thanks for the info, Jeff. We would love to see video of any of the flights if you or your friends shot any!