Rumor has it, another FW-190 has flown!

[hahnej]

Did Steve fly the R2800 FW190 that was at Reno. It would be interesting to hear comparisons of the two. I would think the R2800 would be more powerful (if you could use all the power in that airframe) while the BMW would be more nimble. Kind of like a early Merlin Spitfire vs a later Merlin version.

I would love to hear the sound of the BMW. I still have yet to hear a real DB also.

[k5083]

I don't usually do "Yeah! Awesome!" posts, but one is merited in this case.

You can count on your fingers the number of times a significant WWII type has been legitimately resurrected after having been extinct in the air for at least a generation. Maloney's Ki-84 and A6M5, the MoD's Black 6, TFC's Hawk 75, Yagen's MiG-3 stand out as examples. This is another such occasion.

August

[DoraNineFan]

I would love to hear the sound of the BMW. I still have yet to hear a real DB also.

Until you see it in person, there's YouTube:

The BMW getting exercised:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F906prEvkgE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1DYiPJAunA

Throaty DB engines:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1ySIIJgfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDogNUT1COg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Od4cNTtoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNUNJ5wdBZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miw7zy7MNs8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsjTUuxDzTc

[DoraNineFan]

Fw190D's

There is at least 3 more Fw190D's as well as other aircraft types.

The Fw190D recovered in 1990 was a different identity to the one they were searching for even though it in the same small area of the Schwerinersee!!!!

When I was doing research for Axel Urbankes Fw190D book and the 2TAF, a couple of D-9s collided on May 1st 1945 and also Ostrowiski's D-9 which was lost on 17th April 1945? is still in there. There was also a pair of Buckmanns? that collided.

During the film survey they also spotted a silver finished aircraft with red star - MiG-15/17!!

Bad Zwischenahn has a pair of Bf110's - possibly recovered post war but thought still to be in the sediment.

Lots in there but German has a different ownership/salvage rules than say Austria.

So there is other original JG26 D-9's and other WWII aircraft to be found in Germany.

Have not even looked at Pauersee or Muritzersee.


Mark

I have to say that now is probably the time to talk to people (bureaucrats) and start getting these planes up while there is a reasonable amount of interest and qualified experts to restore them, since future generations may not have the knowledge or care about these wrecks. (And if there will be anything left a few decades from now.) The Lake Jonsvatnet He111 and Ju88 are a testament to what can be accomplished.

[DoraNineFan]

Removed double-post......

[JBoyle]

Specifically I for one am comfortable that the degree of originality of any airworthy Hurricane is known, and documented.

I added Hurricane because of the BBMF aircraft, currently airworthy.. IIRC, that crash landed and burned a few years back.
I'm guessing new wood and if the fire was bad/long enough, it would need new fuselage tubing. Im sure the BBMF would do a proper repair job and not use any structure that could be compromised.
While it may be well documented, it terms or orginal WWII-period factory airframe parts, I'd guess there isn't nuch left.

In that case, what's the difference between it and a Mustang or Spit that were rebuilt from a few pieces of metal dug up from a farm or after spending 50+ years under a beach?

However I certainly agree with your comments on the new build Fws, if there isn't any interchangeable parts with a period FW, then it's a replica.

As is often the case in our long distance conversations, we agree but we're up aginst perceptions of definitions here.
To me original is metal that was touched by the workers at Castle Bromwich or the NAA plant in Dallas..and not just interchaneable accurate, modern quality parts made in a high tech CNC, CAD-CAM workshop.

Last edited by JBoyle on Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[warbird1]

Did Steve fly the R2800 FW190 that was at Reno. It would be interesting to hear comparisons of the two. I would think the R2800 would be more powerful (if you could use all the power in that airframe) while the BMW would be more nimble. Kind of like a early Merlin Spitfire vs a later Merlin version.

I would love to hear the sound of the BMW. I still have yet to hear a real DB also.

Steve did the initial flight and the subsequent test flights of Rudy Frasca's 2800 powered FW 190 while it was at Chino undergoing initial shake down. Steve does not race at Reno anymore, having long since retired. He flies the Chase/Pace plane that was formerly accomplished by Bob Hoover. IIRC, it was John Maloney who flew that 190 during the actual races at Reno.

So, Steve has flown both the FW 190 and the Fw 190. It would be most interesting to hear about the differences!

[bdk]

Did Steve fly the R2800 FW190 that was at Reno.

He did the initial test flights at Chino.

[warbird1]

I don't usually do "Yeah! Awesome!" posts, but one is merited in this case.

You can count on your fingers the number of times a significant WWII type has been legitimately resurrected after having been extinct in the air for at least a generation. Maloney's Ki-84 and A6M5, the MoD's Black 6, TFC's Hawk 75, Yagen's MiG-3 stand out as examples. This is another such occasion.

August

Yes, here is one especially for Mike S.:

AWSOME

[Bill Greenwood]

if it was built by Supermarine, then it was a Spitfire.
If it never was a Spitfire, then it is a replica.
There are obviously planes that were origianals, but may have more than 50% of parts replaced.

The new Flug Werk, is a replica. It was not built by Focke Wulf. Now it is great to have these flying, but they are not Focke Wulfs.
Some people, especially when there is a lot to gain financially may claim that something is built to all original specs or materials, and try to claim that it is original therefore. Not true.

In the art word, there are original paintings, they are done by one person, who may become famous and therefore the painting worth $millions. There are many forgers, a few so skilled that almost no one can tell which is the copy. As I wrote this, I am looking at a painting signed "Marc Chagall". It is an oil,not a print or a photocopy. Some expert might be able to tell the difference, but no average person can, especially from a few feet away. But I am almost certain that it is a copy and not worth the $25,000 of the original. It was bought from a street vendor for $250, and the vendor is probably still selling them.

If it was not made by the originators, then it is a replica, no matter how close or how skilled the copying is done.

If Ford decides to build a new Model A, they could do it and it would be an original, although it would be a 2011 Model A, it would be a Ford Model A. If some firm in California, or maybe even Jack Roush, builds an exact copy of a 1932 Ford Model A, it would be a cool car, might sell , but would still be a replica, not built by Ford.

[Mike]

Yes, here is one especially for Mike S.:

AWSOME

Thank you!

Great news about the Fw. I can see me making another trip to Seattle next summer (just to remind myself what rain feels like, having been away from the UK for so long!)

[warbird1]

Yes, here is one especially for Mike S.:

AWSOME

Thank you!

Great news about the Fw. I can see me making another trip to Seattle next summer (just to remind myself what rain feels like, having been away from the UK for so long!)

There fans say your welcome to, as it's quite around hear.

[P51Mstg]

Well said Bill, decent explaination of what is real and what is not. Of course in the world of aviation you seem to be able to get away with a lot more than you could if you were restoring cars.

Mark H

[The Inspector]

Lets just for the sake of separating the fly poop from the pepper, look at a couple somewhat more pedestrian examples. KENMORE AIR owns the manufacturing rights and all paperwork that pertains to the DeHavilland DHC-2 BEAVER, they build brand new BEAVERS and replacement parts for accident repairs. ERICKSON I believe owns the manufacturing rights and paperwork for the Sikorsy CH-54 SKYCRANE.

So if KENMORE or ERICKSON roll a new airframe out into the sunshine are they continuations or replicas (that sort of question,continuation or replica when both are built by SHELBY, will start a raging argument and perhaps a trip through knuckle junction at a gathering of COBRA owners).

Years ago when Boeing bought DeHavilland of Canada, they attempted to streamline the production bays in the factory. They had a large walled off area taken out and discovered enough parts to build more than a few DHC-2's that had been stored behind that wall for years (confirming what you always suspected about those guys on 3rd shift), what is/was their status? What about Antillies new build G-21 McKinnon turbine airframes?

It's only 100% original until you replace the first burned out dome light bulb, then it's a replica-Classic car people are now recognizing 'survivor' cars that may not be 100% as it came from the WINTON factory in 1903, but enough of it's originallity survives so that everyone can enjoy the experience of seeing the vehicle in something besides a picture and you can marvel at it's owners ability to keep it running and savor the ' marks of honor' (dings, scratches) it's accumulated over the decades.

[daveymac82c]

Hey Inspector,

I'm not sure if you've got your facts right about the de Havilland Beaver.

Kenmore may have permission to build parts, and perhaps entire airframes, but I am almost certain that they do not own the rights. As per what I understood, and after checking wikipedia, the DHC-2 design and type certificate was purchased by Viking Air of Victoria, BC. The also own the type certificates on every other DHC aircraft built. An example of this is that they are already building "new built" DHC-6 Twin Otters.

Also, I don't believe that Boeing owns or ever owned any part of DHC because I practically all Canadian aerospace was bunched into the name Bombardier and that is who Viking Air purchased the type certs from.

I don't mean to discredit your comment, but I wanted to clarify some of the facts.

Peace,

David M