Warbird Information Exchange

Hey guys and gals,

Isn't it now over 3 years since the discovery of the P-38 at Harlech beach in Wales, and yet it still hasn't been recovered?

Perhaps I missed some more recent news, but I tried searching for the old thread on the topic and couldn't find a thing.

Is there any news pertaining to this very interesting warbird discovery/recovery?

Peace,

David

In a word, no, but as far I am aware it is still there and undisturbed. I really must go and have a look as it's only an hour and a half drive from here!

With all the talk of this organization or that group going back to Greenland to recover P-38's buried under 100's of feet of ice, here's one just off shore!

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Ain't no sunshine when she's gone!

Well with TIGHAR being involved, it's doomed to never being recovered, unfortunately.

It's RIDICULOUS! Somebody go get the d*mn thing already. Screw TIGHAR.

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What's with TIGHAR's involvement anyway? Do they have the salvage rights or something?

If not, then someone should be in there right now pulling it out. It seems ridiculous that it's been this long and no movement on it.

Peace,

David

Read all about it right here, David:

http://tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshlightning.htm

and here:

http://tighar.org/Projects/P38/welshplans.htm


Apparently UK-based TIGHAR member Matt Rimmer secured a MoD license to recover the bird (How long it takes for such a license to expire is perhaps something that could be answered by some of our other UK lurker/posters). Mr. Rimmer even posted at WIX a few times, but then went silent.

Now 25 years old, TIGHAR, which promotes itself as the world's premier organization on historic aircraft recovery, still has yet to recover a single historic aircraft.

Let's face it, WIXers. This aircraft is Swiss cheese. Might as well let TIGHAR conserve her under the beach.

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It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Guys,

TIGHAR and the MOD are the easy bit... the MOD won't grant exclusive rights to one aircraft to any single person or party. That means you can apply for a licence should you wish, just the same as TIGHAR. They're shouting about their licence from on high, as their scared someone else will apply. They're making it sound as if its illegal. Its not.

Being the licence holder just means you are the responsible person everything comes down to if you start to recover it. So, if TIGHAR do anything around that wreck, Mr Rimmer has to be present at all times. If he isn't, and one of TIGHAR's people moves something, or disturbs it, they are in breach of the Protection of Military Remains Act, the same as if you or I did it (and indeed TIGHAR imply in their website).

The problem with this plane is landowner consent, in this case the local council. They have to sign the form for the licence. At the moment they have the local archeologists all involved in this, which means that you have to pacify them, before you can touch it.

Technically since it's submerged and in the surf you could argue its not actually on the beach, and go through the coastguard. Kind of underhanded, but technically do-able. You'd have to work from a boat though as I'd bet the council would make life very difficult for you. Not to mention any "security" TIGHAR might have tried to put on a public beach.

Regards,

Rich

since tighar is involved, here is where they are at, they have commissioned a study to confirm the earlier study that confirmed a earlier study. They have also scheduled more fund raising events to pay for the studies, and for future studies should the current studies show that it is indeed a P-38, and not a Lockheed Electra as the studies might have showed earlier.

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Matt Gunsch, A&P, IA, Warbird maint and restorations
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I'm just confused about Tighar and the MOD saying they can't afford a recovery of the airframe. It seems pretty simple to me, isn't it?

I can't see a recovery operation like this costing more than a few thousand dollars. Honestly, what could cost so much that it would take several years to fundraise for it?

Couldn't a "random" museum group apply for a license to recover it, then get a bunch of volunteers together to dismantle it and transport it to a dry location? Just get a crane company to donate a days worth of service, get a trucking company to donate the use of their flatbed truck.... is it just me that thinks this should be easier than they're making it appear?

Peace,

David

David-

I don't think that it is necessarily the actual recovery from shallow water that might be the biggest cost- once you pull that really big piece of fragile swiss cheese out of its 60+year saltwater bath, it will immediately start disintegrating at a rapid rate. The conservation process, which I would assume the British government would require, along with preservation and eventual preparation for display, would cost a ton of money. Not sexy, but expensive. And then what do you have? Not what people are used to seeing when they think of a P-38. You have a whale of a big pile of eaten-up aluminum that will constantly require attention. Not saying that it shouldn't be done, but that it is probably a little more expensive than just getting a barge and a crane and lifting it.

kevin

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Hey Kevin,

thanks for the input. I didn't think that the airframe would need that much conservation once lifted. From Tighar's website they say it is in good condition.

I was assuming they had the intention of restoring it to flying or at least top quality static. Are they actually only wanting to display it in "as found" condition?

Peace,

David

The MOD is suffering from massive budget cuts at the moment - there is no spare cash; even a few thousand dollars. TIGHAR were hoping the MOD would recover it using military assets, but sadly those days are gone. And we all know that any money TIGHAR raises pays for the annual Pacific island holiday/shoe/zip hunt...

ANYBODY can apply for a licence. You have to have the landowners support though.

Getting a heavy crane on and off the beach and into the surf could prove interesting; as could how heavy the P-38 weighs now that its full of wet sand and silt.

Rich

Not the way it works, David. Literally dozens of salt-water recovered aircraft have been lost due to post-recovery degradation and inadequate conservation processes.

If you remove a metal aircraft from salt water, be prepared for a long time and a lot of work stopping it fizzing away from in front of you like a pill dropped in water.

It costs a lot, and takes a long time to do. Aircraft are horrible to conserve anyway; aircraft recovered from shallow, salt and sandy water are about the worst. Deep or fresh both make a huge difference to protect post-recovery survival.

There's some good refs on the topic, one to hand is on a Fw 190 engine here:

http://202.14.152.30/collections/mariti ... ewulf.html

More reports here: http://202.14.152.30/collections/mariti ... sites.html

Tough challenges.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Hey James,

thank you for those links. I'm just about to head to work so I'll be reading them later.

Is there much difference between salt and fresh water recoveries? Or would similar precautions need to be taken for both?

And, what is TIGHAR's eventual plan for the airplane? Besides a 'dataplate restoration' can this P-38 be restored to flying or static? Or at best is it going to be an 'as found' display?

Peace,

David