C-33 and C-39

[Nathan]

Are there any C-33's or C-39's still flying today?

[Tulio]

I don't know where the CAF C-39 is now.

West Houston Squadron used to have her, painted as "Draggin' Lady" back in the 1980s and early 90s.

I distinctly recall reading the data plate, with "C-39" on it, and reading somewhere that it was the oldest C-39 / C-47family flying.

Saludos,

Tulio

[Mark_Pilkington]

The C-33 and C-39 are both DC-2 derivatives,

There is a former USN “R2D-1” aircraft flying in the Netherlands at the Aviadrome as the 1934 air race "Uiver", this however is a effectively a stock passenger DC-2 with the narrow DC2 Fin and Rudder, rather than a C-33, a second DC-2 is airworthy in the US, and recently ferried to its new home at the Boeing museum?, there are a total of 8 DC-2s surviving (one is only a fuselage)

The C-33 had a standard DC-2 slab sided fuselage including the two nose landing lights, but with a DC-3 Fin and rudder in place of the narrow DC-2 Fin and rudder, and large cargo doors rather than a single passenger door.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/051202-F-1234P-035.jpg

The C-39 was similar to the C-33 with a slab sided fuselage with a DC-3 Fin and Rudder, but with wing mounted landing lights instead of the two nose mounted lights, but also had a DC-3 Centre-section and a DC-3 type Dorsel Fin as well.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/051221-F-1234P-001.jpg

There is no recorded C-33 surviving in the world, while only one C39 exists, this is in the collection of the National Museum of the United States Airforce.

Interestingly two of the surviving DC-2's were modified for Cargo Transport by the RAAF after their Eastern Airlines service by replacing their passenger doors with C-33 type cargo doors, but these retain their narrow DC2 Fin and Rudder.


from the USAF Museum website research pages:

Douglas C-33

The successful testing of the Douglas XC-32 led to an order for 18 similar aircraft with improvements designed to make hauling cargo more efficient. The C-33 had a two-piece, hinged cargo loading door incorporated into the aft left fuselage. The cargo floor inside the cargo door was installed at an angle so it was parallel to the ground when the aircraft was parked. This made loading and unloading cargo much easier. The aft fuselage also had three reinforced mount points for a tripod hoist assembly which could be fitted to the aircraft on the ground and used for loading and unloading cargo when a forklift or flatbed truck was unavailable. The interior of the C-33 was fitted with a cable and pulley system to aid in loading and moving cargo. There were also cargo tie-down points located throughout the interior. The vertical stabilizer was adapted from the commercial DC-3 and fitted the C-33 giving it an unofficial nickname: DC-2½.

Douglas C-39

The Douglas C-39 was basically the end result of a development process that began with the XC-32 in 1935. The XC-32 was a military version of the Douglas DC-2 civilian airliner. The XC-32 led to an order for eighteen similar aircraft with the C-33 designation. The first C-33 built was held back at the Douglas factory and modified with a DC-3 tail assembly and designated C-38. The C-38 led to an order for 35 similar production versions which were designated C-39 by the Air Corps.

The C-39 was a mixture of DC-2, DC-3 and military specific parts and assemblies. The plane used a basic DC-2 forward and center fuselage section mated to a DC-3 style aft fuselage and tail. The wing consisted of a DC-3 center section and DC-2 outboard wings. The landing gear was based on the design developed for the Douglas B-18 bomber. Because the C-39 was essentially a hybrid of DC-2 and DC-3 assemblies, it was unofficially known as the DC-2½.

The only C-33/C-39 surviving is recorded on their website as:

The National Museum of the United States Air Force has a C-39 in its collection. The plane is currently in protective storage off public display. The plane was removed from the Annex Hangar to make room for the Boeing VC-137 SAM 26000 presidential aircraft.

The museum's C-39 was ordered on May 11, 1938 as part of a contract (W 535 AC 11137) for 35 planes. The museum's C-39 was the 15th aircraft built on the contract and assigned the Army Air Corps serial number 38-515. The plane was built with the Douglas Construction Number 2072 and designated as a DC-2-243. Although the C-39 was assigned a DC-2 model number (-243), no civilian aircraft of this type were built. The C-39 carried an 'as delivered' price of $73,320.08 (1939 dollars) not including government furnished equipment.

This C-39 was delivered to Patterson Field, Dayton, Ohio on July 6, 1939, where it was flown in a 2 hour 45 minute acceptance test before being turned over to the Fairfield Air Depot, Patterson Field, Ohio on July 7. After a 14 hour flight test program covering three days, the plane was assigned to the 1st Transport Squadron, 10th Transport Group, also based at Patterson Field. The C-39 was put into normal service and accumulated about 100 flying hours per month on average for the next two years.

On April 24, 1942, the museum's C-39 was sent to the Fairfield Air Depot for overhaul. The plane had a total of 2,289 flight hours at this point. The depot maintenance took about three months to complete and after an eight hour post-depot flight test program, the plane was reassigned to Bowman Field, Ky. on July 31, 1942. For the next nine months, the plane was assigned to numerous air fields including Lawson Field, La.; Kansas City Field, Kan. and Sedalia Field, Mo.

On Mar. 9, 1943, the C-39 was sent to the Middletown Air Depot, Penn. The plane remained at Middletown and was used as a transport aircraft for more than a year. The 38-515 was assigned for part of this time to the 496th Air Base Squadron. Due to two name changes — Middletown Air Depot became Middletown Air Service Center then Olmstead Air Service Center — the museum's C-39 was transferred 'on paper' several more times.

After a third round of depot maintenance, the C-39 was sent to Cincinnati for use as a ferry aircraft and assigned to the Air Transport Command. The plane was declared surplus and sold to Pan American in February 1945, ending its military service. The museum's C-39 accumulated more than 5,000 flight hours during its six years in military service.

The museum's C-39 was used for commercial airline service in the late 1940s and was sold in South America and used for several years before being resold a few more times. The museum acquired the plane by donation in July 1970 and restored it to its original configuration while assigned to the 10th Transport Group at Patterson Field, Ohio between 1939 and 1942.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/051221-F-1234P-016.jpg





Tulio refers to the CAF having a C-39?

don't know where the CAF C-39 is now.

West Houston Squadron used to have her, painted as "Draggin' Lady" back in the 1980s and early 90s.

I distinctly recall reading the data plate, with "C-39" on it, and reading somewhere that it was the oldest C-39 / C-47family flying.

I googled the CAF squadrons and saw that "Draggin' Lady" was West Houston's first aircraft but its no longer operated by them,

they are listed as operating:

California
C-53 Skytrooper Inland Empire Wing

Illinois
C-47 Skytrain "Black Sparrow" Great Lakes Wing

Texas
R4D Skytrain "Ready 4 Duty" Dallas/Fort Worth Wing

C-47 Skytrain Highland Lakes Squadron

Last updated: July 29, 2006


Arthur Pearcy’s book "Douglas DC-3 Survivors" lists “Draggin’ Lady” N17332 as s/n 1918 a DC-3-3A-178 built as a left hand door DC-3 for American Airlines and purchased by the Confederate Air Force in 1982 and operated in Chinese Nationalist Livery.

The book indicates it was the 8th oldest DC-3 surviving at time of print in 1987 and was at that time the second oldest still operational, with the others in museums or derelict other than s/n 1910 DC-3A-197 N16070.

Google suggests the aircraft is now on static display at the CAF American Airpower Heritage Museum at Midland Texas?

So I am not sure what the details of the C-39 nameplate issue is, but the attached photo does not indicate a DC-2 slab sided fuselage as expected for a C-39?

Perhaps it was simply displayed as a C-39?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0736575&size=L&width=1600&height=1034&sok=JURER%20%20%28ert%20%3D%20%27A17332%27%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=1


I was however interested to discover there is a C-41 that still exists and fly's, listed as:

C-41 N41HQ, Next Century Aviation Inc/Otis Spunkmeyer Air, Sausalito CA

http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/gallery?893

The C-41 was a one off order by the USAAC, it was used as General Hap Arnard's VIP aircraft during WW2, this s/n 2053 listed as a DC-3-253 by Pearcy.

C-41

In 1938, the Air Corps bought a single DC-2 type aircraft. The plane, designated C-41, was very similar to the C-39 with only a few differences. The C-41 was powered by two Pratt & Whitney R-1830 radial engines with 1,200 horsepower each. The upgraded engines were more powerful than the 975 horsepower Wright radials of the C-39 and gave the C-41 a top speed of 225 mph — 15 mph faster than the C-39. The cruising speed of the C-41 was nearly 50 mph faster than the C-39.

The other significant difference between the two types was the interior. The C-41 was bought as a senior staff transport, so the cabin was finished to allow in-flight staff work and meetings in addition to being more luxurious than the standard troop transport.

The C-41 was used by Gen. H. H. "Hap" Arnold, Army Air Corps Chief of Staff beginning in 1939.

The C-41 is described as a DC-2 Derivative above however it does not have the distinctive DC-2 slab sides? and internal photos suggest a three abreast cabin so it is assumed to be a standard "round" DC-3 fuselage, and with the C-39 DC-3 Centre Section and fin/rudder, it would appear the C-41 is more correctly a DC-3 derivative than a DC-2 Derivative as there seems little of the distinctive DC-2 features left?

Interestingly the USAFM website quotes the C-39 as designated by Douglas as a DC-2-243 and Pearcy quotes the C-41 as designated by Douglas as a DC-3-253 so perhaps they are more different than the USAFM website suggests.

of further interest is that Pearcy records the single Douglas C-41A as also existing at time of publication as s/n 2145 DC-3A-253A/C-41A N132BB

DOUGLAS C-41A
The Air Corps purchased a commercial Douglas DC-3A in early 1939 and designated the plane as C-41A. Although the earlier C-41 was based on the DC-2 (C-39) the intended missions of the aircraft were similar so the new plane was given the -A model.

The C-41A was fitted with a 21-seat VIP interior designed for use by the Secretary of War and his staff. The 1,200 horsepower Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp radial engines gave the plane a cruising speed greater than 200 mph.

The C-41A made its first flight on Sept. 11, 1939, at the Douglas plant. Three days later it was delivered to the Air Corps at Bolling Field, Washington, D.C. The plane was initially assigned to the 1st Staff Squadron and was flown on average about 25 hours per month for the next several years.

The C-41A remained in service throughout World War II first as a VIP transport for the Secretary of War, then as a regular staff transport until December 1945 when the plane was declared surplus.


Type Number built/
converted Remarks
C-41 1 Modified C-39
C-41A 1 Modified DC-3
Serial Numbers: C-41: 38-502; C-41A: 40-70

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/060516-F-1234P-003.jpg

Clearly a round DC-3 fuselage with perhaps even remanent DST slit windows evident in the forward fuselage?

N1332BB was registered to Robert J Bond but the registration number is now allocated to a Lancair so I am unsure if this C-41A aircraft still exists? and is flying under another registration? Does anyone know?


However I guess these two "C-41" aircraft might qualify for Nathan's question?


Of interest the Australian National Aviation Museum took delivery of their DC-2 last weekend - s/n 1292 former Eastern Airlines NC13782, which flew with the RAAF as A30-9

http://www.aarg.com.au/DC2.htm

regards

Mark Pilkington

[retroaviation]

Google suggests the aircraft is now on static display at the CAF American Airpower Heritage Museum at Midland Texas?

Don't know if this helps, but there is definitely not a C-39 here in Midland. The only thing even remotely similar is the Douglas B-23 Dragon which is here on static display.

Gary Austin

[Mark_Pilkington]

google finds a warbirdalley.com page on the C-47 with a picture of "draggin' lady" now named "West Virginia" and at Poplar Grove in Illinonis.

http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:EkXT_gahTBoJ:homepage.mac.com/kevinmurphy1532/iblog/C908587053/E1181522019/Media/WarbirdAlley_%2520C-47Skytrain%2520_%2520Dakota.pdf+N17332+DC-3&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=11

Douglas DC-3/C-47 Serial #1918, N17332, at Poplar Grove Airport, Illinois,
USA. The lettering on the nose says, "West Virginia." Photo by Buck

Hopefully it still exists in an airworthy condition?

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Eric Friedebach]

Thanks for that info, Mark!

Draggin’ Lady was transferred to the Southern Lake Michigan Wing of the CAF around 1990. It was never really operated at shows, as there were some maintenance issues. At one point, the vert stab was removed due to corrosion IIRC.

When the Great Lakes Wing merged with SoLaMich, it was decided to keep The Black Sparrow, since it was felt that having two DC-3s was redundant.

[RickH]

Eric first let me say, nice hairdo ! Not real sure about your halter top though, oh well, to each his own !

Back to business, the C-41A does exist. It was owned and flown by Rowan Drilling here in Houston. They sold it to a museum in Aurora, Colorado a few years back. N145RD, the data tag is indeed marked C-41A.

I've seen the pictures taken while it was at Boling Field. The research shows that while this aircraft was at Boling Field Roosevelt and Churchill flew on a DC-3 type aircraft. There are pictures of them emerging from the aircraft. Might have been this one.

[Mark_Pilkington]

Rick & Eric thanks for those updates

Google finds the C-41A is last listed in the care of Lone Star flight Museum in Texas?

Anyone got an update on that, or the status of former CAF "Draggin' Lady"?

regards

Mark Pilkington

[RickH]

The C-41A went to Lone Star in that ugly blue on blue camo. I believe that it was involved in a trade with Bob Pond and the B-17 Miss Angela, now at Palm Springs. It was damaged when it was outside and a tornado came through Galveston. The rudder and an elevator were damaged as well as an aileron. Rowan Drilling bought it from L/S and had it stripped and polished, they added a dark blue stripe trimmed in gold. That color scheme eventually has become the company aircraft colors. The interior was stripped and it was found that the glue used to attach the headliner had caused some corrosion issues. Rowan used it in a corporate capacity for about 5-6 years then sold it to the museum in Colorado.

[WallyB]

Both the C-41 and C-41A were at the Rcok Falls Ill. event in July. Both are beyond any doubt DC-3 variants.

The C-41 N41HQ has Douglas' serial 2053 and the C-41A N341A has serial 2145. All known production lists confrim these are DC-3 serials. Further, here is a photo of Gen. Arnold in the cockpit of the C-41 (38-502) and the rounded bottom corners of the window clearly indicate this is a DC-3 - those of the DC-2 were square.
http://www.chandellewinery.com/images/h ... ld_c41.jpg

I've e-mailed the USAFM to see if they can establish where the erroneous data originated. So far they haven't responded.

Wally

[JBoyle]

Anyone have a current photo of the NMUSAF C-39?

When I was there last, it was outside.

[mustangdriver]

It is in storage until the expansion of the WWII Gallery takes place or there is more room for it.

[Greg_in_Ohio]

There is a book by Peter M. Bowers entitled "The DC-3 50 Years of Legendary Flight" (Tab Books, 1986). He has a good explanation for the confusion regarding the C-41 erroneously being reported as a DC-2 aircraft. Following is a quote from pages 74 and 75 of this book:

"The first U.S. Army DC-3, the C-41, was given a lower model designation than the C-42, which was a converted C-39 (DC-2-243) because it was contracted for and given a new model number before the decision was made to convert a C-39 to the C-42...The single C-41, the first U.S. military DC-3...has been incorrectly identified as a modified C-39 ever since it was built and it still appears as such in some current publications. Because of this error, photos of it have consistenly been identified as the C-41A, an acknowledged DC-3, and its absence from some official DC-3 lists (even at Douglas) has resulted in an error in the total DC-3 count.

The confusion with he C-39 results from the fact that the C-41 was ordered as one article on the 37-airplane C-39 contract. The descripion in the Army's Model Designation Book did not say that the C-41 was a C-39 converted from cargo to passenger work; it said that it was similar to such a C-39. One of the C-39s on the same contract was converted to passenger interior and actually delivered as the first C-42. It was fairly common practice for one or more planes on a contract to be held back for conversion to a different configuration to be delivered under a different designation. Even a separate model could be slipped in, as was done with the C-41/DC-3.

While the Army serial, 38-502, gives the impression that it was the fourth C-39, the C-41 was actually an off-the-shelf DC-3A with a C/N four units ahead of the first C-39. In keeping with the Douglas practice of using a different dash number for each DC-2/DC-3 variant, it was identified in the factory as a DC-3A-253..."

I hope this helps. I don't think we'll ever stop people from misreporting the C-41 as a DC-2, we may just have to live with it.

I highly recommend Mr. Bowers' book.

Greg