USS Olympia and matter of longterm survival of air artifacts

[APG85]

Way off topic but here's a link to a fantastic video/documentary about the recovery of the SS Great Britain...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/chronicle/8628.shtml

[old iron]

I enquired earlier but the thread so quickly moved on: Can any of our very knowledgeable people say more about how the US Navy came to scrap the original USS Hartford (of Adm Farragut and "darn the Torpedos" fame) and the original "America" (first America Cup winner). Both had been set aside for preservation until the 1930s. What else was lost at that time? I have never seen this story adequately told. It is another example of our military having foresight to preserve but then with changing administrations destroying what had been set aside. All of our military services have some such black sheep in their history.

[Garth]

I enquired earlier but the thread so quickly moved on: Can any of our very knowledgeable people say more about how the US Navy came to scrap the original USS Hartford (of Adm Farragut and "darn the Torpedos" fame) and the original "America" (first America Cup winner). Both had been set aside for preservation until the 1930s. What else was lost at that time? I have never seen this story adequately told. It is another example of our military having foresight to preserve but then with changing administrations destroying what had been set aside. All of our military services have some such black sheep in their history.

I don't know about America, but Hartford had a major reconstruction in the late 1930s and existed into the 1950s. The official record seems to be that she sank at her moorings at Norfolk, was raised and dismantled. I know I've read elsewhere that she burned and sank, but can't find anything to substantiate that recollection.

Info here:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/46/46013a.htm

Series of pics of her, all the way through her sinking and refloating here:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/46/46013.htm

Now, based on what I can see in those pictures, even after being raised she looked ok enough to restore (and only one picture shows what might be evidence of a fire ... maybe). The late-1950s, however, weren't the best of times for warship preservations, however. At the same time she was being dismantled in Norfolk, Enterprise was being scrapped in Kearny NJ.

[APG85]

Pretty neat stuff on the Hartford. Shame she didn't survive...

[old iron]

Scrapped on her hundreth anniversary, and just prior to the Civil War centennials. Interest in Olympia has diminished to the point of possible destruction barely more than a hundred years after the war that made her famous at one time.

So, to get back to the start of this thread. What can be done now to prevent the destruction of our WWII aviation heritage a hundred years or soafter the event?

[JDK]

So, to get back to the start of this thread. What can be done now to prevent the destruction of our WWII aviation heritage a hundred years or so after the event?

Ensure signal examples are in the hands of properly constituted, adequately funded national collections.

Two critical differences occur to me between ships and aircraft, partly as a result of this thread - firstly the preservation of large ships requires funding and facilities that in some aspects makes aircraft look cheap, and secondly that ships don't seem to be collected under the same technological multi-disciplinary museums as aircraft are.

I would suggest that the Smithsonian/NASAM, NMUSAF, Britain's Science Museum, and ship collections such as the Australian National one are as safe as we can expect in terms of preservation.

Regards,

[wendovertom]

Its probably been said here already but, didn't the Olympia bring the casket of the WW I unknown soldier home from France?

Sad to see this happening

Tom P.

[Jiggersfromsphilly]

Yes it did. From what I gather there is a void and the Independence Seaport Museum's inability,or read desire, to lead the efforts is a major hold back in restoring the Olympia. It is vital that soem one steps up and takes responsibility or the torches will rule !

[rreis]

Yes it did. From what I gather there is a void and the Independence Seaport Museum's inability,or read desire, to lead the efforts is a major hold back in restoring the Olympia. It is vital that soem one steps up and takes responsibility or the torches will rule !

sorry to intrude but don't americans have the nice habit to "write to their representatives"? I see lot's of good will here, cant it translate to lobbying?

[Jiggersfromsphilly]

No intrusion at all. One of the problems is that US members of Congress only consider input from their own constituents.

In a nutshell that means that everyone should send letters to their own members asap. The task at hand is saving it from the wreckers torch or Davy Jones locker. The administration and restoration can come later whenit is safe from those mindless destinations.

[Forgotten Field]

Hi,
I am glad this was posted here, as it coincides with my personal interest in the Olympia. I grew up not to far from the Olympia's location and never got a chance to visit her until a few weeks ago. The ship is the oldest floating steel warship in existence, and as noted was Admiral Dewey's flagship during the battle of Manilla Bay. The cruiser also had a distinguished history before WWI and immediately. The ship and company was present for convoy duty in the Atlantic, cruised the Mediterranean at the end of WWI, and was present at Murmansk during the Russian Revolution. Including summer cruises for Mid-Shipmen, one of the last duties of the ship was to return the unknown soldier of WWI. Then she was decommissioned. At present time, the ship will be open from August 22nd to November 22nd, and then will be closed until future disposition is made of the vessel. I recommend getting there in that time, as it may be years before it is open again.

The ship is in need of help. I'm going to disregard talking about the issues with the Philadelphia Seaport Museum, as that can be found on the web and rehashing them here is not going to help the ship. I attended the last board meeting of the Friends of the Cruiser Olympia (FOTCO) on Sunday, August 15th, as I was asked to assist that organization's board and possibly be a board member if required. My purpose attending was to ask questions of the board in order to "vet" them for future aid; basically, I didn't want to endorse a group without knowing more about them. This is what I found, and is current information approved by them for release to the public.

1. The Friends of the Cruiser Olympia was founded about a year ago to gain stewardship of the vessel from the US Navy and retain the ship in Philadelphia as a floating museum. Their website is www.cruiserolympia.org.

2. The Philadelphia Seaport museum has determined that the ship no longer suits their organization, and has asked the USN to take back the ship. FOTCO intends to work with the museum to transfer stewardship of the ship and the 5000 plus artifacts which are part of the ship's collection and are not currently on display due to conservation issues.

3. FOTCO has incorporated in Delaware as a 501C3 organization, but submission of their IRS paperwork for federal recognition and designation has just been submitted. Therefore, donations at this point are NOT deductible from your taxes. This will change when they have IRS designation as a 501C3.

4. FOTCO has qualified US Naval engineering personnel on staff to guide conservation and public presentation of the ship. Also present in FOTCO is Bruce Harris, former executive officer of Amistad, and very well-versed in public historical education and conservation.

5. FOTCO requires $2.5 million in the bank by January 2011 to show responsibility inherent for designation by the USN as steward of the vessel. They are seeking pledges or donations at this time for this effort.

6. Immediate stabilization in place can be done with that money noted in item 5. In the next 5-8 years, the organization will require $10-20 million to haul the ship to the Rhodes shipyard down the road and do maintenance. The last time the ship was hauled was 1945. This time period, 5-8 years, is considered a critical period; delay past that point may lead to permanent irreversible decay.

7. There are other organizations which have expressed interest in the ship, including the great people who took such good care of the USS Cabot, the last jeep carrier. Being exposed to the board as I was on Sunday, and based on my experience with historcal conservation, I can't imagine a better-poised organization than FOTCO. However, I recommend doing due diligence with this organization as you would with any other. I am still learning about them myself, and am willing to pass what is appropriate on to anybody willing to donate to the FOTCO.

If you have any questions, head to www.cruiserolympia.org. If you want my opinions, please contact me here or at my webpage, www.forgottenfield.com. Do not delay!

[JDK]

Thanks for that FF, sounds a lot more viable - at least a way forward.

[kalamazookid]

I'm not sure if this is entirely relevant to the thread, but I figured I'd chime in anyway as it might relate to preservation of old artifacts in general.

I think one of the major reasons that we still see the level of interest in aviation (particularly WWII) preservation is that we still have direct links to the generation that served during WWII. Many of us have relatives that were either around during the war or contributed in some way to war effort and can relate their experiences with the aircraft that exist. We still have the direct link to the artifact with their stories. We know the people who participated in this history, and therefore we can feel a sort of connection with it. You can see a veterans emotion when he remembers a lost friend, or a dangerous mission, or his/her experiences with a particular unit or aircraft. We can see through these people and their stories what the artifact meant- whether it was a symbol of the bond between young men in a unit, or of hard work in the factory, or any of a number of other things. In this way, the artifact has meaning, because we understand the stories and the significance of them to individuals.

As we lose these people, we lose that direct link to the past. Live words just become written history. There's a big difference when one is learning about these events in that regard. It's one thing to read about them on a page- it's quite another to be able to talk to someone that experienced it. When we lose that connection, I think in some ways the event loses some of its significance because we no longer have that direct link that inspires further interest. That's not to say that the events themselves lose their historical significance- it's just that we view them differently because there isn't as much emotional connection with it.

My concern for the future of WWII aircraft in particular is because of this fact. What happens when the generation that fought WWII is gone? Will the planes just become artifacts with no stories attached to them? I think one of the biggest challenges going forward is to make sure something like that doesn't happen. It is going to be the responsibilities of the major organizations out there- flying and static alike- to keep these stories and that connection alive because without it, I fear that interest will wane.

I think one of the reasons Olympia might not be getting the support is because of a lack of this connection. Who is left to tell the story of the people and how the ship is connected with it? How is it's story being presented? Is it's only significance in its technology? Yes, it's great that it's the only ship left like it. But that doesn't create the connection with the people who want to support it. You need to connect with people to ensure their interest.

Personally, my interest in warbirds has never had anything to do with their technology or specifications. My interest is in those who served and those who made the technology relevant. That's why it's interesting and exciting to see a warbird fly- it offers a direct link to the past, to a time when men and women made the ultimate sacrifice. It's a means of telling this generation's story. And I think a lot of the general public at least feels the same way. You can tell them that this aircraft had 13 machine guns, or could fly 428 mph and you might get their attention. But tell them the story of the people who flew them, maintained them, sacrificed their lives in them, or have them listen to a veteran and you'll get a completely different reaction. We cannot lose this if we are to adequately preserve our history and ensure that it continues to be preserved.

I won't pretend to know how the Olympia has been displayed, who has taken care of her, what it's primary educational purpose is, etc. I'd just like to see her preserved, and hopefully have her story told in a way that inspires future generations to be caretakers of her story. As I would hope for the warbird community.

I don't know how relevant this is to the topic, but that's my $.02 and I'm sticking to it

[RyanShort1]

In reply to Matt's post above, the other thing "warbirds" have going for them, at least for now, is the "cool toy" factor. I don't particularly prefer that version, but it is a fact that they are a high-end pilot status symbol for those who can afford them. A ship, like the Olympia is just too big for one person, or even a small crew to really do justice, making it that much harder to maintain. Also, there's about zero chance that some rich doctor will use it to go places like some do P-51s.

Ryan

[JDK]

I think one of the major reasons that we still see the level of interest in aviation (particularly WWII) preservation is that we still have direct links to the generation that served during WWII.

There's unarguably a degree of truth to that, but it is also essentially a 'new world' view. Anyone (including WIXers on holiday) in Europe will see that there's significant interest in history and pre-history beyond anything explicable by personal connections. Racal cultural connections (such as sometimes cringeworthy attempts to claim kin with Scots, Irish or First Nations, for instance) often drive interest bias but way beyond meaningful generational connection.

For the nations with significant connection to the Great War (I'll except the US here, as it's not an area I have good data) interest has actually recently grown, partly driven by 'the last post' currently underway for the very last of that generation alive today, but also due to re-assessments and the very fact its entering history rather than the more emotional (good and bad) personal experience.

Just my 2d!