USS Olympia and matter of longterm survival of air artifacts

[bdk]

The gubmint is not interested in preserving national treasures.The are more interested in making sure everyone ends up dependent on welfare.The money lost,stolen and wasted on social programs would be more than ample to take care of all these ships.What a national disgrace.

How about converting them into low cost housing? Like the Queen Mary, only seedier? As ocean front condominiums, something like this might even be self supporting! Too practical I'd guess. You'd have to deed the carrier or have a long-term lease with a private corporation to make it work (like the casino idea).

[old iron]

To add something more to the issue of short-sighted gubmet policies -

We sink an old aircraft carrier/batleship/airplane as a way to HELP THE ENVIRONMENT (establish a new reef and all that).

But all we have done is thrown away that refined metal. To build a new carrier or airplane we must mine and process more rock, transport to smelter and make to steel at considerable environmental and energy cost. Who's idea is it that sinking rather than recycling an old ship is good for the environment?

[Iclo]

The "build a new reef to help the fishs" is simply an easy argument, how many natural reef there are at the bottom of the ocean to be usefull to add one or two of them ? seriously ?
It's only an argument to justifiy the fact to sink ships instead of correcly deconstructe them in a environmental friendly way. Lot of old ships contain abestos, $$$ to remove and recycle.

On the main subject, all ships in water request regular work to be kept in accepable condition.
To known the result on a hull of a sailing boat kept only 2 or 3 year without paint, I imagine the pain to kept a huge battle ship wealthy.

[JDK]

The "build a new reef to help the fishs" is simply an easy argument, how many natural reef there are at the bottom of the ocean to be usefull to add one or two of them ? seriously ?

I'm not aware of any ships sunk as real reef improvement works, but I'm no expert. I think the majority are sunk as recreational dive sites, because they can be placed at a depth and in a location which suits (mostly) Scuba diving. If you want a good definition for 'euphemism' (a nice word for something nasty) 'artificial reef' is certainly one for 'dumped scrap'.

It's only an argument to justifiy the fact to sink ships instead of correcly deconstructe them in a environmental friendly way. Lot of old ships contain abestos, $$$ to remove and recycle.

I'm no expert, but all the 'reef' ships I'm aware of - and it's a popular game these days, have to have most hazards removed before sinking. At significant cost. Whether asbestos is included, I don't know, certainly most other nasties are.

On the other hand sinking a ship after that work is a lot cheaper than scrapping it, unless you take the extremely environmentally and often fatal to the guys doing it method of getting the beached ship scrappers of India to take the job.

For those who think we overdo it on environmental standards in the west, dumping western problems on these guys to the cost of their lives on many occasions is pretty selfish and the worst kind of 'not my problem'.

There are better references, but for a sketch:

Large supertankers, car ferries, container ships, and a dwindling number of ocean liners are beached during high tide, and as the tide recedes, hundreds of manual laborers dismantle each ship, salvaging what they can and reducing the rest into scrap. Tens of thousands of jobs are supported by this activity and millions of tons of steel are recovered.[citation needed]

The salvage yards at Alang have generated controversy about working conditions, workers' living conditions, and the impact on the environment. One major problem is that despite many serious work-related injuries, the nearest full service hospital is 50 kilometres away in Bhavnagar. Alang itself is served by a small Red Cross hospital that offers only limited services.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alang

One current not-cheap carrier scrapping:

On 31 December 2005 Clemenceau left the French port of Toulon to be dismantled in Alang, Gujarat, India. On 6 January 2006 the Supreme Court of India temporarily denied access to Alang.[6] Six days later the ship reached Egypt, where she was boarded by two Greenpeace activists.[7] Egyptian authorities denied access to the Suez Canal.

On 15 January the ship was finally allowed to pass. This decision was heavily criticised by Greenpeace and other environmental groups.[8] That same day French President Jacques Chirac ordered Clemenceau to return to French waters and remain on standby following a ruling by France's highest administrative court, the Conseil d'État.[9]

After lying off the French naval port at Brest for over two years, Able UK issued a press release on 1 July 2008 confirming that they had been given the contract to dismantle the Clémenceau at its TERRC (Teesside Environmental Reclamation & Recycling Centre) facility at Graythorpe, Hartlepool. Special dispensation was given to Able by the UK HSE to handle the asbestos content of the carrier which would normally have been prohibited by its Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006.[10]

The vessel was moved to Able UK after this was authorised by court proceedings of 29 September 2008, and Clemenceau arrived at Graythorp on Sunday, 8 February 2009.[11]

The dismantling of the ship started on 18 November 2009 and is expected to be complete by summer 2010[12]. Although highly controversial, the quality of the dismantling operation has been complimented by independent environmental groups.[13]

On the 5 February 2010, there was a fire on board.[14].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_air ... _%28R98%29

On the main subject, all ships in water request regular work to be kept in accepable condition.
To known the result on a hull of a sailing boat kept only 2 or 3 year without paint, I imagine the pain to kept a huge battle ship wealthy.

You mean 'healthy' Yes, massive.

The museum is no longer able to fund the preservation costs for Olympia. Historic steel-hulled ships should be drydocked for maintenance every twenty years, but Olympia has been in the water continuously since 1945. Essential repairs are estimated at $10 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Olympia_%28C-6%29

Meanwhile, here in Victoria, here's some numbers for the wreck HMVS Cerberus, a relatively small ship:

In October 2004, the Victorian government funded the A$80,000 removal of the four 18-ton guns from Cerberus, to reduce the load placed on the monitor's deck.[2] After being coated with preservative and receiving an electrolysis treatment, the guns were placed on the seabed next to the wreck.[2] From late 2005, the "Friends of the Cerberus" organisation began to campaign for A$5.5 million in funding to stabilise the wreck site, first by installing additional supports for the deck and turrets (the latter weighing 200 tons each), then raising the ship off the seabed and placing her in an underwater cradle.[2][36] To help attract funds from the Federal and Victorian governments, the wreck was nominated for heritage listing, which was achieved on 14 December 2005.[2][13] In July 2008, AU$500,000 of federal funding was made available to the National Trust of Victoria to start work on the jacking frame and support platform.[35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMVS_Cerberus

(5.5 AU$ is currently just under 4 million Euros, 5 million US$, oh, and 3 million quid.)

On the other hand, back in the 1970s one of the biggest ever historic vehicle recoveries was carried out successfully halfway around the world, and today that ship is fully restored and on show in its birthplace. It can be done.

Crowds of thousands watched the ss Great Britain’s homecoming in 1970. Tugs pulled the old ship up the Avon to Bristol, passing beneath Brunel's suspension bridge.

Onlookers reached out from the harbour walls to guide the ship into her dock. Memories of these events are so potent that many Bristolians remember exactly where they were the day the ship came home.

This homecoming followed a heroic salvage operation in a desolate corner of the Falkland Islands. A determined team of divers and engineers took on the challenge of raising the abandoned ship.

Bad weather and limited equipment made the operation hazardous and unpredictable. Amazingly, it took just three weeks to raise the ship’s vast, fracturing hull from the sea floor. She was secured on a huge pontoon and made ready for her last, 7,000 mile journey across the Atlantic.

http://www.ssgreatbritain.org/IncredibleJourney.aspx

http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2010/ ... in-bristol

Regards,

[Mark_Pilkington]

James, HMAS Melbourne still exists in China. She was sold for scap but used by Chinese designers of their new carrier. We tried to save the last DDG, HMAS Brisbane, but the gumnit spent millions sending her to the bottom as a divers wreck. Brisbane served in Vietnam etc and as the last steam boat [turbine] in the RAN...

I'm not sure the Melbourne still survives? it seems clear She was used for study by the Chinese and the "flightdeck" was reported to be kept for actual flight training (I'm not sure how you keep the "flightdeck" without the rest of the ship?) but since that time China has acquired 2?? younger and more advanced Russian Carriers second hand and I wonder if the Melbourne still survives in any form today??- Google Earth devotees seem to be able to locate these Russian Carriers in China as well as a couple of other large Russian Cruisers? acquired and turned into hotels?? etc - but no one seems to have located a small flat top and identified it as HMAS Melbourne still surviving today.

Australia had the chance to preserve HMAS Melbourne, there was a serious study of it as a floating museum ship, however Australia too has struggled to justify or allocate resources to maritime history.

We still have a very rare 1800's Breastwork Monitor rotting away in Victoria as a coastal breakwater,(the ancestor of the modern Battleship, one of only 3 surviving in the world) the only relic of Australia's colonial navies, for the last 50 years there have been campaigns and studies to save it, yet government simply funds the studies rather than its recovery - it is now starting to collapse apart.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMVS_Cerberus

We have some WW1 J class submarines scuttled in Victoria with occasional talk of recovering one for a museum, while one remains rotting within a defence commando training base, used for practising drop off and recovery (or it was when there was enough of it to do so)

In Australia we do have 2 WW2 Australian Corvettes (Minesweepers) preserved, HMAS Castlemaine is in the water as a museum ship at Williamstown Victoria, and HMAS Whyalla is high and dry as a museum in South Australia and the HMAS Diamatima a RAN WW2 Frigate used in Japanese surrender signings is preserved in the water with the Queensland Maritime Museum. Although its a "fish out of water" the Whyalla will probably last the longest given its removal from the salt water environment and far easier access to maintain.



http://hmascastlemaine.com/

http://www.maritimemuseum.com.au/Collections/diamantina.htm

Australia's National Maritime Museum has preserved HMAS Vampire a post war Destroyer (the largest preserved Military ship in Australia, as well as HMAS Onslow - and post war conventional diesel submarine, along with the 1870's Sailing Ship the "James Craig" and smaller patrol boats etc.

We have another Oberon class submarine preserved @ 500 miles inland at Holbrook (its external and top skins at least), while a third is rotting away in the Westernport Bay awaiting permission to be dragged ashore to become a tourist attraction.

So two possible but improbable and unlikely WW1 or earlier ship preservation opportunities, 3 preserved WW2 RAN ships and a handful of post war Naval ships, perhaps a reasonable effort for our population at the time and our Naval history?, and a shattered Japanese midget sub from the attack on Sydney Harbour.




We have an interesting River Boat history in Australia and the townships of Mildura, Wentworth, Swan Hill and Echuca (ie local government) have done a wonderful job of preserving Australian paddle steamers or even operating them as very succussful tourist attractions, but fresh water, wooden construction and smaller size, and perhaps more wider public interest or tourism appeal make these so much more viable than preserving and displaying large military steel ships in salt water for other communities and governments.



A few other sailing ships survive in Australia, the Alma Doepal struggles to survive?, the Polly Woodside landlocked but preserved in a drydock in Melbourne, and then there are the replica's of the Bounty, the Endeavor and the Enterprise, and South Australia are working hard to save the rare Clipper Ship "City of Adelaide" from being "deconstructed" by the Scottish Maritime Museum because they cant afford to keep it and restore it, and instead given to Australia for preservation in Adelaide.

http://cityofadelaide.org.au/





Perhaps then Australia has fared reasonably well in preserving large ships from its history, other than the ongoing missed opportunity of the HMVS Cerberus?

As James said, it is very surprising that the UK has preserved little of its WW1 or WW2 Naval heritage, with only the HMS Belfast surviving? given the RN's and English legend of ruling the seas - but I do think in part this is because England so financially bankrupted by the war rather than a lack of the sense of history - it always surprises me that the UK got down to only 1 combat veteran Lancaster or no Halifaxes being preserved for a while. - Perhaps it simply reflects the usual outcome, than historicl significance and preservation issues arnt considered during the life or activity, but judged important at a later time, risking the heritage being lost before we value it and try and save it.

The "Aircraft Carrier" was an important element of WW2 and its great that so many have been preserved in the USA, I'm not so sure British WW2 Carriers should have been preserved ahead of a Destroyer from the River Plate, or a Cruiser etc in terms of British significance, and it would have been nice to keep one of each and avoid the argument!, but they are largely all gone so its a mute point today, although apparantly 2 British "WW2" carriers still survive in India with one be preserved as a museum?

The preservation scene for British or Commonwealth aircraft carriers is none existent, most of the Fleet Carriers were scrapped in the 1940s and 1950s, HMS Victorious was scrapped in 1970 and regarded as a sad loss, the last aircraft carrier which had any significant wartime service was HMS Attacker which was scrapped as late as 1980! Whilst for HMS Ark Royal, which was decommissioned 4 December 1978. Its preservation effort failed; so the hulk was sold in 1980 and subsequently scrapped. More recently Venerable and Vengeance (Minas Gerais) were still actively operating with the Navies of Argentina and Brazil. An active campaign by a British group tried to safeguard Vengeance in 2003-2004 however there was a complete lack of support from the British Government or the Fleet Air Arm and Royal Naval Museums in the UK. Her fate was sealed and with no assistance to preserve her in the UK, Vengeance was towed to Alang in India and was being scrapped 2004-5.

Today there with no real preserved former Royal Navy carrier the nearest effort is merely a mock up of an aircraft carrier at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton to provide the public with a "Carrier Experience". This exhibition embarrassingly cost more than it would have cost to purchase the real carrier HMS Vengeance. A sad state of affairs for ship preservation. By comparison the US has had the foresight to preserve its great wartime carriers, 11 still exist in the States.

The renown Royal Navy aircraft carriers that were sunk in conflict with the enemy may have been largely forgotten in people's mind and may be now just be rust but in some cases are as real as the day they were torpedoed or sunk and are preserved as underwater war graves, a total of 9 Royal Navy carriers may still survive as underwater wrecks today.

Yet there is still some little hope for preservation of British Aircraft Carriers. Some, 2 British aircraft carriers laid down in the Second World War still survive to some extent, HMS Hercules and Hermes. One, HMS Hercules is becoming a Museum in India as the INS Vikrant, whilst the Hermes (INS Viraat) is still actively operating with the Navy of India. The UK still has one last opportunity to preserve those important class of ships in its Maritime History, there is time but only just......

Hermes/Viraat was refitted in 2009 and is expected to be in service with the Indian Navy until 2019, Hercules/Vikrant still survives as a museum ship, I'm not sure for how long?

Vikrant is opened to the public by the Indian Navy for short periods, but as of April 2010, the Government of Maharashtra has been unable to find an industrial partner to operate the museum on a permanent, long-term basis. She is the only World War II-era British-built aircraft carrier to be preserved as a museum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Vikrant


At the other end of the spectrum the US has done a marvelous job of preserving large ships, the Queen Mary, a U-Boat (under cover!), the various and many WW2 and early post war Carriers, submarines and Battleships, and while I suspect some of the WW2 ships will be eventually be culled, there is the opportunity to manage them with some type of long term strategy - ie as proposed above, start grouping them in pairs to make a critical mass of visitations, support infrastructure, support volunteers, - start moving some of them onshore into freshwater / saltwater or drydocks, or more likely simply into escavated landbirths, although even those will be expensive as dirt will rot a vessels hull quicker than salt water and there will be no way to clean or paint it for protection? Concrete or plastic lining might be viable solutions but it all costs more than a hole in the ground or leaving a ship in the water - initially.

These preserved WW2 and large ships then will likey be "mankinds" only examples for future generations, not just US Heritage, and they will need to be managed collectively.

That might mean some miss out on funding, and some local communities, or service associations feel hard done by, as the decisions will need to consider duplications versus representative examples, historical significance of one versus the better condition/better location or more completeness of another?

Obviously many will survive another 50 years without drastic decisions being made, but as the WW2 Veterans pass, and perhaps their children do too, Society will need to balance war memorial, failed tourism attractions and maintance costs against the real need to actually preserve some of these for the long term- most likely still in open air, but perhaps not all floating in the water?

Its like all of the Vulcans displayed in air museums in the UK, or Concordes preserved around the world, while freely available they are perhaps better displayed than scrapped, but do we need to preserve all of them indefinately? or just a few of them preserved very well and ongoing into the future?

Its hard to believe that in 1949 the English or the French - couldnt see any benefit in keeping an original sailing ship survivor of the Battle of Trafalgar?, but perhaps just an earlier generations example of the pain and heartache that fate and time offers for the future of many existing preserved large ships?

For more than 50 years she was a Devonport training ship until 1908 when enthusiasts raised £25,000 to repair her wooden hull. Between 1932 and 1937 she was a training vessel for 10,000 youngsters and then served throughout World War 11 as a 145 year-old veteran – the oldest wooden warship afloat.
Her reward in 1949 was a slow, two-hour death as charges were exploded in her hull and she sank to the strains of 'God Save the King' and 'The Marseillaise'.
According to the World Ship Trust she was "murdered for want of funds and public awareness of her plight. She could have been restored and re-rigged for posterity".
As HMS Warrior joins Mary Rose and other historic vessels at Portsmouth and Dundee maritime museums we should make sure we don't allow other great ships to be murdered and sunk in the dismal manner of HMS Implacable.
Before Implacable was scuttled the British government felt that France would appreciate the return of an historic ship. The French government sadly refused to accept her or the costs involved in restoring and maintaining her.

Sinking as a dive reef, is a better solution than scrapping, the structure lives on for a period longer, offering some form of "inspection" or public "visit" and evidence of survival (Artifacts/portions of the wreck might be recovered again in the future - but highly unlikely)

- interestingly one of the solutions to preserve the HMVS Cerberus a little longer from imminent collapse so it can be "saved", has been to remove the massive gun turrets from its superstructure so as to lighten the weight on the remaining structure, and to sit those guns on the sea bed where the reduced exposure to air will rust them slower than the current salt spray and air exposure, (we spent $80k to do that by the way, are spending another $0.5M studying how to save it properly and need $5M now just to save it where it is - where as $5M 10 years ago would have put it up on dry ground in a more intact and meaningful condition and accessible to the public?).

You CANT save EVERYTHING, but equally you "CANT!" save NOTHING, its finding the happy medium in the middle (and finding the money) thats difficult!

Regards

Mark Pilkington

Last edited by Mark_Pilkington on Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Russ Matthews]

Wow -- I'd never heard the story of HMS Implacable until today. Thanks for that Mark. A quick "Google" search turned up this sobering film footage...

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=27323

[Mark_Pilkington]

Wow -- I'd never heard the story of HMS Implacable until today. Thanks for that Mark. A quick "Google" search turned up this sobering film footage...

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=27323

Yes, Unfortunately it wasnt a matter of "opening the sea cocks" but sinking by explosive charges, and judging by the apparant strength of the charges, (the hull can be seen to distort when they blow) and the rate at which She sank suggests there was a lot of hull missing after the explosions for water to rush in.

She apparantly took 2 hours to sink, but it seems she filled with water and rapidly sank into the water, but the 150 year old dry timbers simply caused Her to float just under the surface for quite a while?

Unfortunately then not worth considering a future recovery or refloating by future generations? - unlike the Mary Rose?

Its strange the French were not interested in Her? (I guess they lost the battle and didnt want to commemorate that?)


Regards

Mark Pilkington

[JDK]

James, HMAS Melbourne still exists in China. She was sold for scap but used by Chinese designers of their new carrier. We tried to save the last DDG, HMAS Brisbane, but the gumnit spent millions sending her to the bottom as a divers wreck. Brisbane served in Vietnam etc and as the last steam boat [turbine] in the RAN...

I'm not sure the Melbourne still survives?

As per my earlier post, the indications are that she doesn't. Also touched on the HMVS Cerberus as well, with a wide range of costs in the quoted item. Thanks for the correction on the surviving carriers, though.

British WW2 Carriers should have been preserved ahead of a Destroyer from the River Plate, or a Cruiser etc in terms of British significance

Depends on your criteria. There were several 'historically significant' RN carriers (HMS Ark Royal of course, HMS Illustrious to name two - the Ark was, of course sunk in action) but I don't think any got within sniffing distance of preservation. However on a 'history of technology' basis, given that Britain essentially pioneered almost all the developments that 'made' the carrier, right up to the angle deck and steam catapult, preservation of a British carrier to represent these technical developments would be unarguable - and more significant, again technically, that a cruiser or destroyer. That should sit with the Science Museum, possibly as some kind of active museum outstation. Developmentally, I'm not sure that any preserved US carrier is of technical pioneering significance beyond representing its own class; but that's not why they are preserved, availability (first) and history second, and it's great that any are preserved, of course.

But as you've said, given there's small to no chance of historic British carrier types entering preservation, it's a moot point.

Regards,

[Mark_Pilkington]

.

Yes I saw your new post after I finally finished drafting/editing my own, and noticed some crossover.

I would personally prefer to save more than less as you probably well know James, and I would have thought a Carrier, Cruiser and a Destroyer from the River Plate would have been on the IWM shopping list regardless of the UK's role in Carrier development - but I can also imagine England went through a "clean up/rebuild" period, and a "lets forget the war" period, and a "its too expensive" period, before they started to get to "the lets save it" period.

The rise of National Trusts for built heritage in the 1950s'/60's shone light on technology preservation as well launching the railway and aircraft museums into existance, but too late for the "Implacable", but I agree simply from its Naval History aspect, the RN/UK should have kept more than 1 Cruiser surely?

Unfortunately public interest has moved on from saving buildings and "heritage protection" to the focus through the 70's onwards of saving rain forests, wilderness and wild rivers via "National Parks" and "environmental protection", and now to the focus on "climate protection", who knows what the next great "cause" will be, but probably not old ships and large aircraft.

and back onto the Olympia - I hadnt actually realised its age or significance, it seems unbelievable that scuttling as a reef could be considered, surely drybed display would be a far better, longer term outcome? It would seem to be of International significance in terms of the naval period it represents (there would be few other contempories surviving)- regardless of its own historical significance to the USN?

USS Olympia (C-6/CA-15/CL-15/IX-40) was a protected cruiser in the United States Navy during the Spanish-American War. She is most notable for being the flagship of Commodore George Dewey at the Battle of Manila Bay. The cruiser continued in service throughout World War I and was decommissioned in 1922. As of 2010[update], Olympia is a museum ship at the Independence Seaport Museum in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Olympia is the world's oldest steel warship still afloat.[1]

Ironically in Australia we are contemplating raising $5M to drag a contemporary of Olympia up on stilts out of its death bed as a breakwater, and in the USA they have the Olypia in a condition or display Cerberus will ever only be able to dream about, and they are considering $10M might not be available to keep it, and instead it might be best scuttled as a dive reef.

Perhaps we can give them our rusty collapsing breakwater and have the Olympia and spend our $5M on it smiles?



A rational "International" maritime heritage Strategy might transfer funds and trade outcomes like that - hopefully at least a "National" maritime heritage Strategy in the US can see the benefit in keeping Olympia but perhaps letting go of a few of the other preserved ships?

Regards

Mark Pilkington

[goshikisen]

I can't believe that they'd sink the Olympia... no better word to describe this than "ignorant".

[RyanShort1]

I'm glad I can say I've set foot on the Olympia. I just wish I had that kind of pocket change...

Ryan

[michaelharadon]

A few words about ship breaking in Alang, India:: http://www.wesjones.com/shipbreakers.htm

Kudos to the French for doing it right with their carrier. In the end we all suffer when the environment gets screwed up.

Also, googling "ship breaking" will give you enough to read to keep you up all night.

[Mark_Pilkington]

.

We all wonder over the long term future of static aircraft on poles or outdoor display, knowing that the metals involved react quickly to moisture and electrolytic affects of the dis-similar metal contact, and the reality is outdoor display, even with cleaning and repainting, is not a long term viable preservation solution.

For these museums holding, maintaining and displaying a large military steel hulled ship the "static" and "outdoor" display issues take on massive proportions.

For the HMAS Castlemaine here in Melbourne Australia, it has a length of 186 feet, a beam (width) of 31 feet, and draught of 8.5 feet (hull under the water line), and a weight/displacement of 640 tons - ignoring the constant rusting occuring on the superstructure and need to clean/repaint due to the salt air environment, the hull itself would exceed 3000 sq feet of surface in constant contact with salt water, and the only way to really refurbish/maintain that would be periodical dry-docking with ALL the costs of drydock availability nearby, costs of access/use, labour costs to do the work quickly, and any tugging or fuel costs to get there and back?



The costs to acquire a dry dock or build one just to permanently display, and clean the ship in would be massive, and so the alternatives become -build a contained lagoon on the shore line, that can be pumped dry (a cement pond) as required to create a poor mans drydock (probably filled with salt water given the cost to buy fresh water to fill it), or alternatively to bring the ship ashore and to create a dry bed for it, ie the HMAS Whyalla solution (a sister ship to the Castlemaine above) of putting it above the ground provides access for painting or cleaning it, but it unfortunately it looks very much like a ship out of water, it must also create an access issue for visitors? and such an outcome would seem more difficult the bigger the ship?



Alternatively the hull can sit in the ground, but the steel will rot twice as fast if left in contact with moist dirt, and if the hull rots the lower decks will eventually collapse under the weight.

Effectively the installation of a ship onto dry land becomes its own unique building, with the hull and its frames having to be treated as, and protected as the foundations, otherwise the "building" will still collapse, it just wont "sink".

The oldest surviving paddle steamer in Australia, the PS Adelaide spent over 20 years in a dirt drybed on display in the Hopewood Gardens in town of Echuca, yet was restored (with replacement of the hull boards) and is now back on the River, but of course a 75 foot x 16 foot wooden hulled boat is not the same as these large steel ships.





At Swan Hill the largest surviving Australian paddle steamer, the PS Gem, sits in its own fresh water pond up on the bank of the river as part of the Pioneer settlement, the pond can be drained to create an instant dry dock to clean/repair the hull, and the hull can be supported below the waterline, so the water effectively is for visual effect, not for floating on.

The fresh water is cheap and readily available from the adjacent river, and the pond is not much more than a hole in the ground lined with plastic to stop it leaking.




I assume there are designs and cost estimates of concrete filled or plastic lined "holes or beds" for the hulls of such large museum display ships to be placed in, but the costs must be far higher than simply digging a large wide hole in the ground, and while a static aircraft in a hangar or outdoors on a hard standing might "look" like its ready to fly away, a ship on a stand, or sitting in the "ground" to its "waterline" doesnt quite equate to one in the water, even if its gutted and cant steam away?

It must be an interesting preservation issue on the minds of many maritime museums?, but any of the above outcomes would be better for the Olympia than sinking as an artificial reef.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Jiggersfromsphilly]

One of the hidden factors in the rush to sink the Olympia, is that in order to sink her ,enviromental standards have to be met. The interior of the ship has to be cleaned of all materials that may polute , oil ,asbestos etc. In order to reach some of these areas, piping and other things have to be removed. If you have ever visited the Olympia, the interior is a virtual time machine into the 19th century. The woodwork is magnificent and there is brass and copper everywhere. The engines are a tribute to the indutrial revolution and the scrapping of the brass and copper in her may bring millions alone.


Me thinks thereis more going on behind the scene than the public is privy to.

[old iron]

Speaking of historic ships scrapped in relatively recent time, I understand that the US Navy preserved a variety of ships into the 1930s - including the USS Hartford (of "darn the Torpedos" fame) and the "America" (which won the original America Cup). It is my memory that these were damaged in a flood prior to being scrapped. I have never seen the particulars, or learned what other ships were lost in this event. We have some very knowledgeable readers here who can enlighten me!