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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:27 am 
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we are not fighting countries or flags. our enemies have no international identity other than being enemies that are of radical extremism & terror where they hide. they are organizations & factions. yes, they hide in afghanistan, iraq, & increasingly indonesia. who are we fighting?? we have no identifiable enemy in uniform other than in rags by day & ak 47's by night. the russians were beat by a monetarily & casualty attrition in afghanistan. we are following the same path after 9 years. i don't want my son's sense of duty & patriotism as a marine pissed away for a lost cause even though he doesn't feel that way!! no country has ever won in afghanistan. such a backward unstable nation beats the heck out of the world's 2 top super powers?? explain that!! it all begins at home. we need to put the whoop ass on, cull the terrorists out & come home p.d.q. the geneva convention act supports all nations at war........ alqaida & taliban are not nations, they are fanatical factions that are bent on manipulating free society.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!


Last edited by tom d. friedman on Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Tom, I have 2 sons of military and war age. There are darn few wars that I'd risk their lives for, probably in my lifetime it would be WWII and perhaps Korea, Bosnia, dammn few else,certainly not Vietnam or Iraq or Afghan.
Luckily mine had other options and like most people here (Colo) were not prone to join.But many other kids who were less fortunate, had less education or needed the money, went and too many died or lost limbs or sight. The casualty toll from our two current wars is about 45,000; this to avenge the loss of 3000 on 9-11. Many of these wounded will suffer for a lifetime, you don't regrow an eye or half a brain. The math don't add up, we,ve lost in the wars 15 times what we did in 9-11, not to mention the economic cost. We are supposed to be the capitalist, not Alqeada , but they sure are giving us a lesson in how to get maximum damage for minimum cost. (Just saw on the 6 oclock news, about the funeral service for a young man,a graduate of Boulder High School, a Black kid who wanted to be a Marine in a mostly white school in a very liberal town. Sadness knows no boundries, leaves his parents and a wife of 4 months.)
If Tricky Dick Nixon or Lyin B Johnson or Geo W. Bush called on us to give em your car or airplane or invest in their Ponzi scheme,most of us would say no way, or at the very least we'd have to see all the proof to allay doubts.
But let these same bums ask for our kids and too many parents think about less than a meth addict before his next fix. When the Son, or now even worse Daughter comes home in a box, a few parents say stop the madness. But there are too many more, some on the payroll of a defense contractor or the govt itself, that see the loss of our children as something patriotic. As least that is what they often say in public, I wonder what their conscience says late at night. And those folks who profit off the war seemed to lead a charmed life, doesn't matter who is Pres, the war rolls on. If you don't think war is about money, take a look at the stock price of Osh Trucking over the last years, while making the MAVs.
Pres Bush banned photos of the coffins as the came home, sort of out of sight out of mind. And on July 4th or some holiday we like the patriotic speeches and music and flybys, almost like cheering for Texas vs USC or vs the Barbarians on the Brazos. In England, they drive the coffin through the streets, so people know and see what the cost is, and that war is not some abstract video game. Seems to me, they ought to bring the Pres and Congress out to the coffins each week, and the hospitals to face what their votes mean in real cost. Nothing more patriotic than seeing young men and women getting prosthetic limbs.
By the way, Tom you might think I am overly skeptic, there are those that say our leaders know best and who are we to doubt, much less complain. After all they did such a fine job with Vietnam, the mortgage market, and economy, why should we wonder? Maybe I and others are a bit impatient, its only been 9 years.
On your point about the Geneva Convention, it is a side issue of the war, the question of who is a soldier or a criminal. But in general, I'd like to see our country live up the the high standards that we profess, not stoop to the lowest level of others. We never held even Nazi teenagers for 7 years with no release or trial. Sen. Mcain, who should know, has come out against torture of prisoners, partly to afford some protection to our soldiers if captured.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
But many other kids who were less fortunate, had less education or needed the money, went


There are also orders of magnitude more who were raised socially fortunate, are well educated, and don't need the money, and they volunteered to join the US military during a time of conflict, knowing full well what they'd be involved in and supporting.

We're not talking about a draft military, nor are we talking about 'kids' who have been 'duped' into anything. They were not doe-eyed kids seduced by rhetoric or misplaced nationalism disguised as patriotism.

The vast, vast, vast, vast majority that I've had the pleasure of serving with were well aware of why they were there and what they were fighting for, and were proud and happy to be doing it.

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I am only in my 20s but someday I will fly it at airshows. I am getting rich really fast writing software and so I can afford to do really stupid things like put all my money into warbirds.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:55 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
In England, they drive the coffin through the streets, so people know and see what the cost is, and that war is not some abstract video game.


They are not driven through the streets for public spectacle -- the sights you see broadcast on television are from the town that sits directly outside the front gate of the National Cemetery for veterans where the occupants of those coffins are laid to rest.

The British public, by and large (and with the exception of a few protesters) turn out to pay their respects.

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I am only in my 20s but someday I will fly it at airshows. I am getting rich really fast writing software and so I can afford to do really stupid things like put all my money into warbirds.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:56 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
Pres Bush banned photos of the coffins as the came home, sort of out of sight out of mind.


Or, alternately, it was to give the families a little privacy...take your pick and spin it politically as required.

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ellice_island_kid wrote:
I am only in my 20s but someday I will fly it at airshows. I am getting rich really fast writing software and so I can afford to do really stupid things like put all my money into warbirds.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:49 pm 
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Randy, if most of the kids joining(average soldier, not pilot) are "well aware " of why we are there, how did they get this knowledge and perhaps you could tell us what that reason is after 9 years. The original reason was WMDs. When this Edsel would not start, what is the next reason? Is it that in afghan, we are building some fine democracy with the govt which is rated as the 2nd most corrupt in the entire world? Is it so we can avenge the loss of 3000 people with 45,000 casualties, and still climbing. Or to give easy access to Americans so AlQueda does not need to come over here to kill 6600 of them?
If there is such a great reason worth the sacrifice of these young people, then I am sure money is not an object. Does the military get plenty of recruits just for this good cause or am I mistaken that they offer large cash payments? Just saw a tv story about a girl soldier buying a $17,000 BMW with military money and loan. And Randy, if fighting these wars is so well known as a good risk, then surely a large number of Congress or the admin have their kids serving in combat, don't they? The only one that comes to mind is Biden Jr. as a lawyer.
If you think the average kid joining is well aware, how so? What is the average age and education of the new recruit? I doubt if most of them have had any real education on the history or politics of these wars. beyond the huge PR campaign pushing it. How much do you think the average kid knew about the history of Nam before they were sent? I went to the 2nd best high school in Houston, same as W, and never learned anything about Nam until as a college senior I studied it on my own. I got no info in basic or tech school, certainly not any unbiased comprehensive view. You or the pilots you fly with may have known more, but you are not the average ground troop taking most of the losses.
As for the supposed privacy issue of the coffins, that's pretty thin. Some Parents asked for media coverage under Bush and were denied, they now have that choice . When a firefighter or similar is lost in an honorable way, the govt does not try to hide the loss for "privacy". I saw the coffin driven through the street and honored by British people on tv. I don't know if this is the usual practice, but their govt was not hiding it and even more so not lying about the reason to hide them. Where is the lack of privacy, with a closed coffin? It is the numbers, and bad pr the govt. tried to hide.

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Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Randy Haskin wrote:
Bill Greenwood wrote:
But many other kids who were less fortunate, had less education or needed the money, went


There are also orders of magnitude more who were raised socially fortunate, are well educated, and don't need the money, and they volunteered to join the US military during a time of conflict, knowing full well what they'd be involved in and supporting.

We're not talking about a draft military, nor are we talking about 'kids' who have been 'duped' into anything. They were not doe-eyed kids seduced by rhetoric or misplaced nationalism disguised as patriotism.

The vast, vast, vast, vast majority that I've had the pleasure of serving with were well aware of why they were there and what they were fighting for, and were proud and happy to be doing it.





randy, well put!!! my son is in that group, he just wanted to serve his country & was denied nothing as a kid. he just has strong values & wants to give back to his country. i just don't want his sense of patriotism & military pride traded for nothing. i'm no soldier, but i don't know any veteran who would feel or has felt any different.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:56 pm 
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bill, you make valid points, but from what i've seen most kids are joining up from the heart & not the wallet.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:38 am 
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Tom, the whole gist of what I am saying is not the issue about money. The kid in Boulder always wanted to be a Marine, think his Dad was. But he joined right out of high school and is dead at 19.
I'm sure many kids think "in their heart" they are doing the right thing. But are they really? Other than some vague idea of serving the country, what good is the war in Afghan doing? Do you really believe Karzai and his bunch are anybody to trust, or to bring any version of free or democratic govt.worth all those lives, after 9 years?
Lot's of people believe in their heart in Scientology or did in Bernie Madoff. It doesn't change the facts.
The 9-11 highjackers almost surely believed they were doing the right thing in their heart.
If anyone really wants to serve his country, there are lot's of other ways. There is a huge need for medical people in many poor areas for instance.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:16 am 
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Bill, you're mixing two very different arguments together here.

One argument you're trying to make -- the argument as to if the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan are "worth it" (in terms of American lives and treasure), or if they're effective, or what-not -- is a perfectly valid topic of discussion, but one that I won't personally debate with you. Not saying I agree or disagree with your points or your position, but I'm just not addressing it.

The other, completely separate argument, is your claim that somehow the US military is primarily comprised of a bunch of innocent kids who had no idea what they were getting into, and have been hoodwinked by some evil leadership or a false sense of patriotism into risking their lives in uniform. On this claim, I'll simply say that I know and have worked with a lot more active duty GIs who are actively engaged in this conflict than you do. Unlike your statements in your post, I'm not just referring to the college-educated officer/pilots that are my peers, but also plenty of young, high-school educated enlistees who are, as you say, 'taking most of the losses'. Of those people I know and have worked with, they reflect my statements made previously and are not how you claim they are. Re-enlistment rates in the US military are at an all-time high. These are people who have all ready deployed and seen the puppet show, and when it came time to re-enlist they decided to stay in. If things were how you say they are, then 21-year-olds with one enlisted tour would be leaving the military in droves (there's no stop-loss...they're free to leave the volunteer military).

I agree with your statement that there are plenty of other ways to be of service to your country aside from the military, and that those other ways are just as honorable and in some ways more beneficial...it's just not relevant to this topic at hand.

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ellice_island_kid wrote:
I am only in my 20s but someday I will fly it at airshows. I am getting rich really fast writing software and so I can afford to do really stupid things like put all my money into warbirds.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:18 am 
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Randy, as for no stop loss, when did the military end the use of this? There have been lots of media stories of vets forced to stay in.

As for high reenlistment, does that have a lot to do with the poor economy and lack of jobs on the outside? And you have not answered my question about large cash and other bonuses given to recruits. Am I right or wrong on this? Saw a recent story about a lady soldier who joined to get cash and loan to buy a BMW.

But the big point, is what you want to ignore, whether the war or the Afghan govt or any of it is worth the sacrifice of all our people and the vast amount of money spent. Would even killing or executing Bin Laden make this worth it; his life for the 6600 Americans? Or the real long shot, getting some kind of pro U S democracy there?

It's pretty incredible that you don't seem to think this is vital. Are we asking all that sacrifice from GIs and taxpayers in vain? The taxpayer part in now huge, a recent article talks of $3 Trillion, yes with a T, of overall defense spending at a time when we have so much unemployment and a big budget deficit.

Anyway, I hope they all stay safe. I worry about all you guys, but I must admit to feeling a little bit extra for a 19 year old kid who was just getting started on life.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:42 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
But the big point, is what you want to ignore, whether the war or the Afghan govt or any of it is worth the sacrifice of all our people and the vast amount of money spent.


Do you honestly think that, as an active duty military officer, that I'm going to make written comments in a public forum about the validity of combat operations we're currently engaged in?

I'm allowed to have an opinion, but there are definitely restrictions about in what capacity I can express it.

Let me drop a name that may ring a bell for you: Stanley McChrystal.

So, if you feel that's me 'ignoring' your 'big point', feel free to believe that, but that's not what's happening.

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ellice_island_kid wrote:
I am only in my 20s but someday I will fly it at airshows. I am getting rich really fast writing software and so I can afford to do really stupid things like put all my money into warbirds.


Last edited by Randy Haskin on Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:50 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
Randy, as for no stop loss, when did the military end the use of this? There have been lots of media stories of vets forced to stay in.


Secretary Gates ordered that it be drastically reduced starting in early '09, and that it go away entirely by the end of this year.

Bill Greenwood wrote:
As for high reenlistment, does that have a lot to do with the poor economy and lack of jobs on the outside? And you have not answered my question about large cash and other bonuses given to recruits. Am I right or wrong on this?


Sure, there are definitely some re-enlistment bonuses being paid out. Yes, there is a poor economy. How does that bolster your argument in any way?

Your argument was that scores of soldiers were being duped into fighting in a war that they were woefully ignorant about -- the implication was that if they knew what they were in for, they wouldn't have done it. The fact is, people ARE re-enlisting at record rates...people who HAVE experienced combat deployments and can't in any way be described as being ignorant about what's happening overseas. In fact, they're more acutely aware of it than you are.

People re-enlist for many different reasons, and that's just as true today as it was during any period in our history that we've had a volunteer military. To imply that there are only (or primarily) economic motives for those who have re-enlisted is disingenuous at best.

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ellice_island_kid wrote:
I am only in my 20s but someday I will fly it at airshows. I am getting rich really fast writing software and so I can afford to do really stupid things like put all my money into warbirds.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:02 pm 
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Randy Haskin wrote:
Bill Greenwood wrote:
But the big point, is what you want to ignore, whether the war or the Afghan govt or any of it is worth the sacrifice of all our people and the vast amount of money spent.


Do you honestly think that, as an active duty military officer, that I'm going to make written comments in a public forum about the validity of combat operations we're currently engaged in?

I'm allowed to have an opinion, but there are definitely restrictions about in what capacity I can express it.

Let me drop a name that may ring a bell for you: Stanley McChrystal.

So, if you feel that's me 'ignoring' your 'big point', feel free to believe that, but that's not what's happening.


Bravo, Randy.......and Thank You For Your Service !!!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:44 pm 
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Thanks for your service Randy.

Bill, Why are left wing liberals always angry at this great country of ours, no matter who is in charge?

WWI was lead/started by a liberal president.
WWII was lead/started by a liberal president.
Korean war was lead/started by a liberal president.
Vietnam war was lead/started by a liberal president.
Bosnia war was lead/started by a liberal president.
Haiti war was lead/started by a liberal president.
Iranian hostage crisis was started by a liberal president.
Somalia screwed up by a liberal president.
Afganistan screwed up by a liberal president.
Cold war started by a liberal president.

Iraq war started and finished by a conservative president.
Afganistan war started by a conservative president.
Vietnam war ended by a conservative president.
Iranian hostage crisis ended by a conservative president.
Cold war finished by a conservative president.

Maybe the only good wars are started by liberals?

I really wonder who the war mongers are?


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