FIFI TO FLY

kmiles · **Posted:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:26 am

bluehawk15 wrote:

My dear Cuz Ober,
No, being experimental doesn't preclude selling rides. The CAF operates under an exemption letter (6802) which sets down the requirements for selling rides for hire. If the plane is standard, one set of requirements apply, including that the rider doesn't have to be a member of the organization. If the plane is limited (like the Yellow Rose) or experimental, there are other requirements for flight crew, and the rider has to be a member of the organization (even a $55/year supporting membership counts, which is usually rolled in to the price of the ride).

Any aircraft that is being operated under part 91 and offering rides for hire have to operated under an exemption letter regardless of aircraft category. The exemption letter gives pilot training requirements, maintenance requirements, weather requirements for each flight as well as directives like the organization must maintain a current 501c3 certificate with the IRS. There are also directives that dictate notifications to the flight standards district office when items like engine shutdowns occur. The exemption letters also state that rides for hire can not occur between 2 different airports. The ride for hire can go no further than 50 miles from the originating airport (25 miles normally, but up to 50 miles if certain criteria are met). The exemption letters do not spell out differences between limited and experimental aircraft as long as the aircraft in question is listed specifically in the exemption letter. If there is a membership restriction for limited aircraft in the CAF, it is a CAF restriction, not an FAA one.

Obergrafeter · **Posted:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:28 am

If ride aircraft are restricted to 50 miles and return to take off aiport, how do touring a/c like Aluninumn Overcast take passangers from one place to the next destination on rides? I know this happens, is this a little wink wink bending of the rules? Also back on topic of Fifi was the grand opening first flight a function of the B-29 Squadron or did headquarters just go overboard themselves?

Brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:30 pm **Posts:** 1132

Obergrafeter wrote:

Also back on topic of Fifi was the grand opening first flight a function of the B-29 Squadron or did headquarters just go overboard themselves?

Wasn't the squadron...

Rod Schneider · **Posted:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:29 am

Obergrafeter wrote:

If ride aircraft are restricted to 50 miles and return to take off aiport, how do touring a/c like Aluninumn Overcast take passangers from one place to the next destination on rides? I know this happens, is this a little wink wink bending of the rules? Also back on topic of Fifi was the grand opening first flight a function of the B-29 Squadron or did headquarters just go overboard themselves?

I know that on the Liberty Belle we have taken people on flights between airports. These are usually people who have earned their way on due to volunteering, being a veteran, and so forth. Since there is no charge or payment for these flights, the 50 mile rule (and several others) do not apply.

kmiles · **Posted:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:39 am

I do not want to get this thread too off topic, so I will be brief, and any additional questions on the exemption letter you can send me a PM and I will answer as many questions as I can.

As for the flights between locations, there is no way to do them legally under the exemption letter that allows rides for hire. That is not saying that you can not take people between locations. I can not answer for Aluminum Overcast specifically because I am not involved with them, but if the person is not paying for the flight, they can go between cities. We often take WWII crew members and their families, members of the media, and special guests. As long as the people are not paying for the flight directly, it is not taking part under the exemption letter, so it follows the same rules as the rest of part 91 operations. It is no different than someone taking a friend from one location to another in their Cessna 172. Just because you have an exemption letter to do rides for hire, does not mean that every flight you do falls under those restrictions.

If you are interested in reading the exemption letters (they are about as much fun as reading the FAR's) they are all public knowledge at: http://aes.faa.gov/ You just search the exemption letter number if you know it, or you can search the organization.

bluehawk15 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:37 pm

I could have sworn that I read in our exemption that passengers on a limited or experimental had to be members of the CAF. Upon reading it again, I don't see that. Perhaps one of those things you think are in writing, but aren't. I'll have to check the CAF regs now. It would be nice if being a member wasn't required at all, we could lower our fee!

However, our exemption (6802) does appear to show different requirements for the pilots of standard aircraft and limited or experimental ones. At least it specifically lists each catagory.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:43 pm

bluehawk15 wrote:

I could have sworn that I read in our exemption that passengers on a limited or experimental had to be members of the CAF. Upon reading it again, I don't see that. Perhaps one of those things you think are in writing, but aren't. I'll have to check the CAF regs now. It would be nice if being a member wasn't required at all, we could lower our fee!

However, our exemption (6802) does appear to show different requirements for the pilots of standard aircraft and limited or experimental ones. At least it specifically lists each catagory.

I'm guessing the membership deal is for insurance purposes, or some other legal reason.

Ryan

mustanglover · **Posted:** Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:50 pm

There are actually two different things being discussed here

First is the Exemption from the FARs which allow a Limited or Experimental aircraft to perform flights for compensation or hire. An Exemption is issued out of Washington DC. This Exemption allows the aircraft to travel around giving rides such as those mentioned above. Not sure about the point A to point B flights.

And then the second is a Letter of Authorization. With the LOA, or simply an approval letter, from your local FSDO you can carry people for compensation but are required to only operate from you local home base airfield and they usually have a requirement that those being given the ride have to be a member of your local museum. This is how POF gives their rides.

Warbirdnerd · **Joined:** Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm **Posts:** 2941

An update from "On the Fly" (CAF Memebership email)

Quote:

On Tues. July 6, 2010, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued an Airworthiness Certificate allowing the Commemorative Air Force (CAF) B-29 Superfortress crew to begin Phase I flight-testing.
Phase I flight-testing will begin in the afternoon on Fri., July 9 and continue through Sat. During these test flights, the B-29 crewmembers will be required to depart Midland International Airport for unpopulated areas. Upon returning from the flights, the crew will need to dismantle areas of the aircraft in order to review the aircraft’s performance and safety.
On Mon., July 12, the B-29 will be in flight for crew training. This is the perfect opportunity for community members to join the CAF in celebrating FIFI’s return to flight. During these training exercises the B-29 crew will be performing “touch-and-gos” at Midland International Airport. *
The CAF Airpower Museum will open its doors at 7 a.m. on Mon. July 12 for visitors who would like to get a front row seat for FIFI’s pre-flight preparations and flight. Visitors to the museum will be ushered to the main hangar for an up-close view of the crew preparing this massive bomber for flight. Once FIFI begins to head for the runways, visitors will be escorted to a prime viewing area, to witness the B-29’s crew training.
Monday will also mark the beginning of the museum’s new summer hours. From Mon., July 12 through Mon., Sept. 6, the CAF Airpower Museum will be open Monday through Saturday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.
The CAF Airpower Museum is located at 9600 Wright Drive near Midland International Airport. Admission to the museum is $10 for adults age 18-64, $9 for teenagers age 13-17 and seniors age 65 and older, $7 for children age 6-12 and children age 5 and under receive free admission.
*Crew training schedule subject to change based on the successful completion of Phase I Flight-Testing or inclement weather.

Zachary · **Posted:** Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:33 am

Obergrafeter wrote:

If ride aircraft are restricted to 50 miles and return to take off aiport, how do touring a/c like Aluninumn Overcast take passangers from one place to the next destination on rides? I know this happens, is this a little wink wink bending of the rules? Also back on topic of Fifi was the grand opening first flight a function of the B-29 Squadron or did headquarters just go overboard themselves?

The only time A.O. takes passengers from one destination to another is when the passengers are volunteers, EAA employees, or if it's a complimentary ride to a EAA Chapter president or an exemplary Young Eagle volunteer for example. I can assure you that the EAA B-17 crews do not bend the rules and operate within the strict limits allowed by the FAA.

Zack

bluehawk15 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:16 am

The exemption is only active, with it's single airport for take off and landing, and the range restriction, if it's a "ride for hire". If nobody is paying to be onboard, we can take anyone anywhere we are going.

Pogo · **Posted:** Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:58 am

So what's the word with FIFI? I just got back from the Texas Water Safari (a little canoe race), been out of touch with Earth for a few days.

Brad · **Joined:** Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:30 pm **Posts:** 1132

Pogo wrote:

So what's the word with FIFI? I just got back from the Texas Water Safari (a little canoe race), been out of touch with Earth for a few days.

Still waiting....

http://commemorativeairforce.org/?page= ... _page=1267

the330thbg · **Joined:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:06 pm **Posts:** 2713

let me guess.., the guy to initially release this to the press used to be in charge of the production run of A380's, then was moved to Boeing to run it's 787 line and now he is with the CAF? :axe:

Obergrafeter · **Posted:** Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:28 pm

He is busy trying to get his foot out of his ....................mouth. Family channel.

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