Warbird Information Exchange

Recently a new law made it illegal for an airline to hold passengers hostage in the plane on the tarmac. After 2 hours there is supposed to be water, restrooms, etc. provided and after 3 hours there is a fine of $27,000 per passenger held.
Just last week, Virgin Airlines diverted to Hartford and held folks on the plane for over 4 hours, with no services provided.
There Was no fine, foreign airlines are exempt from the rule.
For a number of years there were dozens of cases like this. The airlines claimed it wasn't their fault, and predicted dire consequences of the new law. Then the new law went in to affect and the Virgin one is the first I have read about since. We'll see when the weather gets worse.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Check this link out Bill,

http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/05/23 ... ences.html

B-29, my computer won't bring that article out, and when I went to Goggle for it, it wasn't listed in that paper that day.
Anyway, judging from the title, I think I recall it that it was an editorial, thus it is someone's opinion on what may happen. It is NOT facts on what IS happening. I think it claims that airlines are going to cancel more flights. Ft Worth is an area that profits heavily from the airline business and the editorial may have some slant to it for that reason.
The law has only been in effect a short time, and not tested in winter weather, but I have not read of any or more flights being canceled because of this. One basis of the law, is that many passengers would be much more comfortable in the terminal or hotel or home, rather than stranded on the plane for hours. If the plane is not going anywhere for 5 or 6 hours, for whatever the reason, then don't leave the gate,and call it a flight.
The law does NOT prevent airlines from delaying or canceling a flight, it just provides some minimum treatment for passengers when there is a delay. I can't think of any other industry beside airlines that claim the right to take in a customer, not provide the promised service, then not allow the customer to leave. A bus, or taxi, for instance, might be delayed by weather or traffic, but the passengers can get off. If you go to the game or concert, and there is a weather delay, you can leave or wait it out, and you have food and restrooms while you decide. Same if you go to a play and the production is delayed. They don't lock the doors, you can leave. And they don't have TSA or other security to threaten people who just want off.
I think the law is a very good thing. It is too bad the airlines could not have done this among themselves, but I think they will or have adapt and the result will be better for all.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I agree with you. The gist of the article, written by an airline pilot, is that if there is any chance of a long delay, the airlines will cancel the flight and the passenger is S*** out of luck. Part of the problem Virgin Atlantic had was there wasn't any custom agents in Bridgeport, so they had to wait on the airplane since there wasn't a sterile area for them in the terminal. The pilots should have landed at an airport with customs.

If the airline can take off before 3 hours,there is no fine, they just have to have working toilets etc. I think most passengers would not like a 2 hour delay, but might manage. When it it 4 or 5 hours with no services, that is another story.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Been there, done that. . . and was NOT happy about it! A few years ago, my wife and I sat aboard a raggedy 727 at DFW for SIX HOURS waiting in an endless line to be de-iced. The crew finally gave up, turned the plane around, and taxiied to another airline's gate to allow us to get off the plane and use the restrooms, buy food and drinks, make phone calls, etc. They had to. There was no food on board (it was scheduled as a two hour flight), the drink carts were empty, the lavatory holding tanks were full, and things were getting really ugly aboard that plane, including a fight between two passengers (yes, two angry federal marshals paid them a "friendly" visit). We were at the borrowed gate for just over 30 minutes before we were rounded up and herded back onto the plane because there was an inbound flight that needed the gate. Our plane was tugged to an empty hardstand where we sat for ANOTHER hour and a half before we finally spun up and taxiied to the de-ice pad! We got NO compensation or consideration from the airline (which I will not identify here). At least they were able to get the "honey wagon" out to the plane to empty the holding tanks, and they got a couple of the drink carts replenished.

As Bill said, the real test will be how winter delays are handled. It takes time to de-ice an airliner, and it's not a job that should be rushed (as a passenger, I certainly want that job done right!). I think there will be more cancellations and more stranded, angry passengers. But at least the stranded, angry passengers won't be crammed into a stuffy aluminum tube with only three lavatories for 180 passengers!

Dean the disgruntled traveler

Kinda brings to mind fighting some oil down south. Possibly a disinterested party could stand back and view the mindboggling regs of the FAA, DOT, TSA, Customs,airline policies, passenger rights, etc, and see that they are all at odds with each other. The gov't agencies trip each other up even on the beaches!

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Cessna 195

Bill,

As the post above states, the airline tried to comply with the rules and get the passengers off, but Customs Agents denied them from doing it. This is exactly what happened in California last year that caused such a hullabaloo. Don't blame the airline when they're not at fault.

In addition, the US rules only apply to US airlines, not international. Since Virgin Atlantic isn't a US airline, they don't apply.

CAPflyer, one of the key phrases in the expalnation is, "the airline says". So the part about the threats from customs come from the airline spokesman in London. We haven't heard the other side from customs or from the airport.

How much stock should we put in a description of the gulf oil spill if it came only from BP?
I don't know about any such stranded passengers in California, but I do know of many other cases where passengers have been stranded for as long as 8 hours when it was a national flight and no customs were involved. What was the airlines backup plan if they did have to divert?

No matter what the situation, "don't blame the airline, it' s not the airlines fault". And did customs prevent the airline from bringing electrical power for the ac or food or drink out to the plane during that 4 hours? If the strandings are never the airlines fault, always someone or something else, why did the govt direct the rule to the airlines, not customs or elsewhere. And if it is never the airlines fault, then the rule is not likley to help. I guess the proof will be how things go this next year. I think the airlines can, should, and will make a big improvement under this rule.

I said in my first post that these rules only apply to domestic airlines. You say the airline was trying to follow the rules, then that there is no such rule for them.

Which airline do you work for or did you work for? I own Southwest stock which used to be hot, but has been stranded too!

I welcome your input in any case.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Just because they're not subject to them doesn't mean they don't try to comply anyway as a courtesy.

Having had quite a few dealings with US Customs over the years, I can tell you I believe the airline. The rules are very strict. If the flight is international and had not pre-cleared customs, no one can get on or off the plane nor can anyone not on the plane "change the state of the airplane" until Customs approves it.

I don't disagree that the airlines have in the past not thought through things, but at the same time, the new "rules" (actually, it's a law that usurps the FAA's authority in this matter, but that's another issue) have been causing more problems than it's fixed because airlines are now simply canceling flights that might get delayed anywhere close to the new rule limits to avoid the problem altogether. How does that help the traveling public if they can't even get off the ground because their flight is canceled and then they have to try to fly standby on other already overbooked flights?

In the end - the only person that loses is the traveler. They either get stuck on the plane because the airlines don't follow their own plans or they get stranded because the airlines do what they must to minimize liability to the new rules.

CAP, there have been articles or editorials to the effect that airlines would cancel more flights under the new rule, or they have threatened to.
However, I don't see any reports or facts that there really are more cancellations.
If the flight is not going to operate somewhere near on time, and that does not mean after sitting for 6 hours, then the passengers are better off at home or the motel or in the terminal.
The airlines will not make money if they don't do the flight. I don't think they will just cancel, but I do think they will begin to treat passengers better.
I tried to google the news reports on Virgin to see the other side of the story, but my computer won't do it. If customs got there in 2 hours,did the passengers ever get a break in the teriminal. I don't think so, I think they were held for the whole 4 hours without services.
It is possible that much of the fault is customs, but not in many other cases.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Virgin (the airline) has no services or represenitives at the small Bradley Airport. Electical power does nothing for the air conditioning as its pneumatic. Hooking up air from a ground air conditioning unit will only work if they have one....and if it fits the heavy Airbus. Again, Bradly is a small feeder airport where a 737 757 are the biggest planes that lands there.

Customs not being there with enough manpower is NOT disputed by customs. The aircraft as a whole is sealed. They will not allow anything to be opened because of security issues. Thats not disputed.

There were plenty of articles right when the 3hr rule started that talked about massive flight cancelations happening.

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Cessna 195

Bill, you are complaining about about one situation by one airline, but you're trying to extend it beyond it and remove the government of any fault by doing so in your last statement.

As for cancellations, I can tell you that at DFW 2 weeks ago when we had thunderstorms rolling through, over 100 flights were canceled before the airport shutdown because the airlines were afraid the delays might stack up. Several weeks before that, almost every flight from Dallas to the Northeast was canceled due to weather up there.

As for cost - if they don't fly the flight, it doesn't really cost them anything additional, but if they leave it delayed too long, they have to pay not only the refunds, but they have to give additional compensation they wouldn't have needed to give out previously. Then, they can simply re-schedule the crew and plane for another flight to another destination and make money that way. If the reason for the cancellation abates soon enough, they may even create an "extra" flight to fly to the original destination at a later time and use it to carry any leftover passengers.

Cap and Jtramo, I didn't know about the recent cancellations at Dallas. But here is the basic question: The airlines canceled a lot of flights, because of local weather and at the destination. so the passengers did not fly or get stranded.. WOULD the passengers have been able to fly safely, comfortably and promptly where they wanted to go IF they were not canceled OR WOULD they more likely have been sitting for hours in discomfort on the tarmac, and maybe not even get there that day anyway? Were they saved the discomfort or did they lose a good chance to travel? I'd guess that when the weather cleared the flights were on again, and operated ok.

And remember the rule doesn't demand the airline be perfect, they still have up to 3 hours of delays allowed.

I wish my computer would allow me to look up the news stories, it has a big problem.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK