Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:21 pm
Had a great time Taigh!!! thanks again from all of us for your efforts. Roger and Jim did a great job with the photos, it's still a toss up which is more fun...being on the bomber or shooting photos! It's amazing to feel the airplane shake when that 50 lights off...I can only imagine what it felt like with all of them going. The target was perfect this year, going wide around the IP you picked worked perfect. Can't wait for next year!!!
jim harley
jim harley
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:52 pm
Actually Ob the issue earpugs are simular to the ones issued in the 80's ans STILL issued today!
Scott
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b12/c ... 0PLUGS.jpg
Scott
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b12/c ... 0PLUGS.jpg
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:58 pm
We actually found camo ear plugs but we still had ones left over from last year (we just scraped off the old ear wax 
). We did think about it though! It is also hard to find 1940's style safety glasses...
). We did think about it though! It is also hard to find 1940's style safety glasses...
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:01 pm
It was a GREAT TIME! We all enjoyed it and as always look forward to next year!!!!
Scott
Scott
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:31 pm
I can't wait either. Maybe there will be more people to cook for.
Ricky
--
Ricky
--
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:07 pm
adding a few more pictures, hopefully photobucket is kind to their quality.
Ground School
Sleeping quarters (don't ask about the nylons)
Bomb handling trucks
Preflight Safety briefing
Fun time
Ground School
Sleeping quarters (don't ask about the nylons)
Bomb handling trucks
Preflight Safety briefing
Fun time
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:02 am
No more detail on the mission planning for the drops? I'm interested to know, if anyone's willing to talk.
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:44 am
Sure
Taigh, Jim Goolsby, and I sat down at a computer and used Google Earth to familiarize ourselves with the target area. Taigh had plotted the lat and long for us to program into our GPS for a rough IP and Target zone. The target itself was very well laid out on the ground and consisted of a large cross with the longest line being that of the heading needed to over fly the target in the proper direction. In the center of the cross was a large white painted area that was used for Taighs' aiming area. I called flight service and did the standard weather brief...although that was little or no use once we got the to target area...it had all changed by then. Taigh did all his bomb aiming calculations for around 2260', give or take...especially with a B-24. I want to say the first crew we did 3 dry runs on the target then the 3 drop runs. On the second flight I think we did a total of 4 passes. It's amazing the level of concentration you need to hold course, altitude and speed AND watch the PDI gage.
I can say I had the advantage of flying co-pilot on the first round, it made flying from the left seat really easy on the second flight. You CANNOT see the target once you roll out on heading...so communication between Taigh and myself was key to alignment of the target.
The briefing was focused on safety. We had people on the ground and the L-Birds spotting for us between drops to insure a clear drop zone. We also had a trained crew on board to insure the safety of the passengers during the bomb-bay door opening. Every year has been a learning experience but it keeps getting better and better.
jim harley
Taigh, Jim Goolsby, and I sat down at a computer and used Google Earth to familiarize ourselves with the target area. Taigh had plotted the lat and long for us to program into our GPS for a rough IP and Target zone. The target itself was very well laid out on the ground and consisted of a large cross with the longest line being that of the heading needed to over fly the target in the proper direction. In the center of the cross was a large white painted area that was used for Taighs' aiming area. I called flight service and did the standard weather brief...although that was little or no use once we got the to target area...it had all changed by then. Taigh did all his bomb aiming calculations for around 2260', give or take...especially with a B-24. I want to say the first crew we did 3 dry runs on the target then the 3 drop runs. On the second flight I think we did a total of 4 passes. It's amazing the level of concentration you need to hold course, altitude and speed AND watch the PDI gage.
I can say I had the advantage of flying co-pilot on the first round, it made flying from the left seat really easy on the second flight. You CANNOT see the target once you roll out on heading...so communication between Taigh and myself was key to alignment of the target.
The briefing was focused on safety. We had people on the ground and the L-Birds spotting for us between drops to insure a clear drop zone. We also had a trained crew on board to insure the safety of the passengers during the bomb-bay door opening. Every year has been a learning experience but it keeps getting better and better.
jim harley
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:26 pm
What did Taigh use for calculating the ballistics? Are there ballistic charts/tables that are available to use for the munitions shapes you were dropping?
What information has to be input into the Norden to get the correct sight depression? Does it know the aircraft baro alt or indicated airspeed? At 2200', was there any concern for simulated frag avoidance? A 500-pound bomb has a 30", 2500 foot frag cone.
What information has to be input into the Norden to get the correct sight depression? Does it know the aircraft baro alt or indicated airspeed? At 2200', was there any concern for simulated frag avoidance? A 500-pound bomb has a 30", 2500 foot frag cone.
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:45 pm
You've got me there Randy...Taigh had the Norden Bombsight tables as a reference. Since the "bombs" were made of molded concrete I'm not sure the accuracy could be precisely predicted. Taigh will have to weigh in on the specifics of the bomb sight settings. From his tables he gave us parameters to fly within, I think they were 165mph at 2260'...and he guided us to the target from the IP using the PDI and vocal instructions. Taigh was so busy running the show I really didn't get a chance to talk to him about the specific operating procedures for the Norden.
jim harley
jim harley
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:17 pm
Hello Randy,
I am sorry that I didn't respond to you sooner. I meant to reply but just plain forgot to do so.
To add to what Jim posted I really need to practice more than once a year on this. The preparations before the camp are done concurrently with work on my customers aircraft so spare time was less than ideal by far. I would like to build a simulator just like they used back in the day and then practice a lot prior to the camp. Unfortunately the only real practice I have been able to get in is going to the target and synchronizing with the Norden, then several dry runs over the target prior to a live drop.
We make the runs at low level so the influence of wind will be small as well as the trail of the bombs. I set up the sight with the original ballistics tables and calculations for expected conditions. This year the automatic release system in the sight head decided to go TU so we used the manual-electrical release system. I will use this system anyway when the students are up in the nose so they can release the bomb/bombs themselves. Manually pushing the button introduces its own errors too as it cannot match the release system in the Norden's computer.
The Ballistic tables came from eBay (god I love eBay!!) in one lot that had books for all of the WWII air drop ordnance. We made a casting of a real 250 LB GP bomb and made wood fins as close to the original as possible but I am sure the ballistics are not perfect for our concrete replicas.
The calculations were straight out of the tables for 160 MPH but I failed to verify our ground speed once at the range. I found out later that it was way off which accounted for all but one of our bombs landing short. One landed way short because of another bonehead error on my part which is right out of the training manual; bombing with extended vision engaged. Extended vision allows you to slew the optics ahead to pick up the target early. If you don't get it back into the detent then you will drop early if synchronized, which I did. I looked up from the eyepiece saw the indices cross, pressed the release button and then saw that I was short of the normal release point. This is another reason we use low altitude for the drops because the errors like this will keep the bombs close to the target.
As for the information entered into the sight I would input trail (the amount the bomb will lag behind the aircraft as it travels through the air mass), Disc speed which is basically ground speed expressed in RPM and controls the motor that drives the optics so the fore and aft cross hair will be synchronized on the target and also the tangent of the dropping angle. Once on the run you need to make adjustments to get both cross hairs synchronized on the target with both rate and drift killed. Once this is done it is a matter of the sighting angle matching the dropping angle which is where the bombs are released.
We used 2000 AGL which came out to 2265 MSL. As Jim mentioned I had to direct him and Pappy on the run because they can't see anything once you turn on the run. I just gave them left and right corrections. I wish we had the C-1 autopilot installed and working as it would sure help. I have the parts to do this but it will be a big project and finding the time to do it is hard especially while the aircraft are on the road. Since we don't have the C-1 we use the PDI but mostly verbal lateral commands. I remember one time, last year or the year before, I asked Pappy for a 2 degree turn right and he said "TWO DEGREES ARE YOU KIDDING ME!" My reply was okay then 10 degrees right and 8 degrees left!
It is a real kick to be able to do this. I have dropped bombs from my old Beech AT-11 and then we dropped them with a WWII bombardier from a B-25 at NAS Fallon for a documentary that never aired. We then did it again with a WWII and Viet Nam Norden Bombardier for a PBS documentary and more recently out of the B-24J. Next year we will likely use the B-17 and possible both the B-17 and B-24 together. I used to get good information from WWII bombardier's and instructors but sadly they are gone now. I have been using the manuals and training films but nothing beats plain old practice which I need more of. I will get another Beech AT-11 running soon and I will use this for practicing along with the old style ground simulator which will be a big help.
Someday, before I die, I will get a Shack!
I am sorry that I didn't respond to you sooner. I meant to reply but just plain forgot to do so.
To add to what Jim posted I really need to practice more than once a year on this. The preparations before the camp are done concurrently with work on my customers aircraft so spare time was less than ideal by far. I would like to build a simulator just like they used back in the day and then practice a lot prior to the camp. Unfortunately the only real practice I have been able to get in is going to the target and synchronizing with the Norden, then several dry runs over the target prior to a live drop.
We make the runs at low level so the influence of wind will be small as well as the trail of the bombs. I set up the sight with the original ballistics tables and calculations for expected conditions. This year the automatic release system in the sight head decided to go TU so we used the manual-electrical release system. I will use this system anyway when the students are up in the nose so they can release the bomb/bombs themselves. Manually pushing the button introduces its own errors too as it cannot match the release system in the Norden's computer.
The Ballistic tables came from eBay (god I love eBay!!) in one lot that had books for all of the WWII air drop ordnance. We made a casting of a real 250 LB GP bomb and made wood fins as close to the original as possible but I am sure the ballistics are not perfect for our concrete replicas.
The calculations were straight out of the tables for 160 MPH but I failed to verify our ground speed once at the range. I found out later that it was way off which accounted for all but one of our bombs landing short. One landed way short because of another bonehead error on my part which is right out of the training manual; bombing with extended vision engaged. Extended vision allows you to slew the optics ahead to pick up the target early. If you don't get it back into the detent then you will drop early if synchronized, which I did. I looked up from the eyepiece saw the indices cross, pressed the release button and then saw that I was short of the normal release point. This is another reason we use low altitude for the drops because the errors like this will keep the bombs close to the target.
As for the information entered into the sight I would input trail (the amount the bomb will lag behind the aircraft as it travels through the air mass), Disc speed which is basically ground speed expressed in RPM and controls the motor that drives the optics so the fore and aft cross hair will be synchronized on the target and also the tangent of the dropping angle. Once on the run you need to make adjustments to get both cross hairs synchronized on the target with both rate and drift killed. Once this is done it is a matter of the sighting angle matching the dropping angle which is where the bombs are released.
We used 2000 AGL which came out to 2265 MSL. As Jim mentioned I had to direct him and Pappy on the run because they can't see anything once you turn on the run. I just gave them left and right corrections. I wish we had the C-1 autopilot installed and working as it would sure help. I have the parts to do this but it will be a big project and finding the time to do it is hard especially while the aircraft are on the road. Since we don't have the C-1 we use the PDI but mostly verbal lateral commands. I remember one time, last year or the year before, I asked Pappy for a 2 degree turn right and he said "TWO DEGREES ARE YOU KIDDING ME!" My reply was okay then 10 degrees right and 8 degrees left!
It is a real kick to be able to do this. I have dropped bombs from my old Beech AT-11 and then we dropped them with a WWII bombardier from a B-25 at NAS Fallon for a documentary that never aired. We then did it again with a WWII and Viet Nam Norden Bombardier for a PBS documentary and more recently out of the B-24J. Next year we will likely use the B-17 and possible both the B-17 and B-24 together. I used to get good information from WWII bombardier's and instructors but sadly they are gone now. I have been using the manuals and training films but nothing beats plain old practice which I need more of. I will get another Beech AT-11 running soon and I will use this for practicing along with the old style ground simulator which will be a big help.
Someday, before I die, I will get a Shack!
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:34 pm
That looks like a lot of fun! One question and one comment:
1) What type clearances did you have to get from the FAA?
2) What Captain would wear marksmanship medals?
Maybe in WWII; but, as a prior enlisted officer, I was told in OCS that officers were assumed (Yah I know) to be experts and never wore my expert medals again... Even though I usually qualified expert in all weapons I carried, I'm sure there were some who could barely hit the broad side of a barn and would be embarrassed to wear the marksman award.
1) What type clearances did you have to get from the FAA?
2) What Captain would wear marksmanship medals?
Maybe in WWII; but, as a prior enlisted officer, I was told in OCS that officers were assumed (Yah I know) to be experts and never wore my expert medals again... Even though I usually qualified expert in all weapons I carried, I'm sure there were some who could barely hit the broad side of a barn and would be embarrassed to wear the marksman award.
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:41 pm
Taigh -
Very cool, thanks for the detail.
Interesting that you have to put bomb *trail* into the site. Although bomb trail is one of the items I've had to calculate in my bomb dropping (for computing safe separation/safe escape maneuvers and distances), that doesn't have any impact on computing sight depression for something that is out in front of the aircraft and release timing. I've never seen how a Norden works, so I suppose it would make more sense if I knew that.
What kinds of miss distances were you getting?
In manual bombing with the T-38 and F-15, level releases (usually from 500 or 1000') that were flown well could result in "acceptable" misses of 100+ feet. Unfortunately, level releases have the shortest amount of target time in the sight (as compared to any kind of dive-angle bombing), and any 6 o'clock/12 o'clock errors are amplified. Of course, those are errors that take place at 450+ KGS, so 100 feet of error on the ground is about 1/2th of a second hesitation in pushing the pickle button (depending, of course, on the ballistic flight path and impact angle/speed of the bomb). Just slightly smaller margin of error than flying at 160 knots.
Thanks again. Sounds like a lot of fun -- I'd like to try it someday!
Very cool, thanks for the detail.
Interesting that you have to put bomb *trail* into the site. Although bomb trail is one of the items I've had to calculate in my bomb dropping (for computing safe separation/safe escape maneuvers and distances), that doesn't have any impact on computing sight depression for something that is out in front of the aircraft and release timing. I've never seen how a Norden works, so I suppose it would make more sense if I knew that.
What kinds of miss distances were you getting?
In manual bombing with the T-38 and F-15, level releases (usually from 500 or 1000') that were flown well could result in "acceptable" misses of 100+ feet. Unfortunately, level releases have the shortest amount of target time in the sight (as compared to any kind of dive-angle bombing), and any 6 o'clock/12 o'clock errors are amplified. Of course, those are errors that take place at 450+ KGS, so 100 feet of error on the ground is about 1/2th of a second hesitation in pushing the pickle button (depending, of course, on the ballistic flight path and impact angle/speed of the bomb). Just slightly smaller margin of error than flying at 160 knots.
Thanks again. Sounds like a lot of fun -- I'd like to try it someday!
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:44 pm
Pogmusic wrote:2) What Captain would wear marksmanship medals?
Maybe in WWII; but, as a prior enlisted officer, I was told in OCS that officers were assumed (Yah I know) to be experts and never wore my expert medals again... Even though I usually qualified expert in all weapons I carried, I'm sure there were some who could barely hit the broad side of a barn and would be embarrassed to wear the marksman award.
Must differ by service.
I wear my two marksmanship medals on my ribbon rack. It's one of the few medals I actually feel like I legitimately earned!
Re: Bomber Camp 2010: Mission complete-Photos
Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:02 pm
Randy Haskin wrote:Pogmusic wrote:2) What Captain would wear marksmanship medals?
Maybe in WWII; but, as a prior enlisted officer, I was told in OCS that officers were assumed (Yah I know) to be experts and never wore my expert medals again... Even though I usually qualified expert in all weapons I carried, I'm sure there were some who could barely hit the broad side of a barn and would be embarrassed to wear the marksman award.
Must differ by service.
I wear my two marksmanship medals on my ribbon rack. It's one of the few medals I actually feel like I legitimately earned!
That may be true Randy. I do know that in WWII, the USAAC/USAAF were Army. Don't know how far back that tradition goes. The one medal I was proud (and fun) to wear as a Captain was the Good Conduct Medal -- only awarded to enlisted soldiers.