Warbird Information Exchange

I was participating in Chad Veichs thread regarding Jimmy Leewards Grumman Guardian possibly being made airworthy and doing some shows. We have one at the Az Wing of the CAF as well but it's been forever on the back burner. Both a lack of money and general interest in the plane will forever doom it to static condition. I think that the CAF wings and squadrons in general are suffering the same fate hence the sale of some of their aircraft. I know Ober, none should ever be sold and I agree with you on that, BUT- the aircraft that were sold were up for assigment for quite a while with very little interest being shown to financially support and maintain the aircraft in question. If the Corsair or Red Nose were put up for assignment, then I'm pretty sure there would be a long line of groups wanting to have the aircraft assigned to their group. At least I hope there would be. I believe Jerry Yagen purchased the Ju-52 and as much as I would have liked to seen the plane remain in CAF control, I'm sure that in the long run, the plane will fare much better with Mr. Yagen. My question after all this is--- Over the next five to ten years, how many independent single warbird owners or small museums will be able to absorb the spiraling costs to keep these planes safely airworthy? Gentlemen like Rod Lewis and the Freidken family, Cavanaugh and maybe a few others seem to be the longterm solution for a great many of the warbirds. As long as they continue to fly, I don't really care who owns them. God bless all those individuals who have the passion and the financial clout to do it. Going back to the CAF thing, I believe more and more groups will be turning in their aircraft to HQ due to a lack of funding and qualified individuals to maintain them. Will these be sold off to other collectors as well? (easy Ober). How many of the guys out there particularly those who are in their seventies or eighties can continue to sustain this. I'm thinking of whats happening to the Bob Pond collection since his death as well. Will all these aircraft eventually be sold off too? Just a thought I'm throwing out there. What does anyone else think?

_________________
The more I learn about aircraft, the more I realize I still have to learn.

I think the majority of CAF aircraft will continue to find support. Even though a lot of our "Angels" of yesteryear have since passed away, and also given that we have lost a lot of our WWII vets in the CAF (and those who are still active with us have a shrinking fixed income), I'm seeing a new interest in the CAF by younger people (gee, I remember when I was one of them!). One of the blessings that has come along to help finance the maintenance and operation of many warbirds is the Ride For Hire waiver. The Yellow Rose B-25 is starting to make up for the shrinking air show market, and associated PX sales and aircraft tours, with the History Ride program. I know some of the fighters, like the P-51's do well also. Too bad there's no way to get a passenger in the P-39! (although I do recall a pilot, many years ago, giving a pretty lady a taxi ride in it! Yes, she sat in his lap, but I don't know if she got to hold the stick.)

_________________
Mike

The problem with the small units in the CAF is that they have to send so much money to HQ just to exist. No I do not have a magic cure, but if a unit could spend its money on the airplane rather than sending it to Midland (with no return) then maybe some of the smaller planes and units could survive. Perhaps if a unit could document the money spent and trade it for the annuac fee or something like that. I just can't figure how a unit with no plane cost HQ over $1000 a year just to exist. And if it does how much do members with no local unit cost them?

Cuz,

I hope the CAF can cut the ANNUAC in the near future. However, we are now getting more in return for our $$$ than before at least. Is it equal to what we send them? It doesn't appear to be, but we are moving into a positive cash flow at least.

_________________
Mike

The name of this thread should really be "The future of the CAF"

The CAF's chickens are coming home to roost. For many years the vast majority of the CAF wings/ members that I came into contact with (including some people who post frequently on this forum) have acted like my friends and I had no right to see or be around their airplanes, they acted arrogant and aloof to us when we were younger, as if the only reason we had to be allowed in their presence was to hand over our money, then see the airplane as quickly as possible and then get the f--- out but don't forget to spend money at the PX wagon on our way out the door. And, get this, we were not young "punks" at all but bright, clean cut kids, most of us in officer's training programs or similar. All of us dying to get involved in aviation any way possible. Get a ride? forget it. get advice and mentoring? forget it. But, we would be allowed the priviledge of cutting the grass, sanding and painting engine cans, and mopping the floor if we forked over what for us was a LOT of money. And, if lucky, we might in a year or two be "allowed" to ride in the C-45 to work at an airshow.
Now, my buddies and I are aircraft owners, IA mechanics, corporate pilots, Airline pilots and military officers and pilots. The attitude pretty much is that it will be a cold day in h-ell before we join the CAF or support it based on the way we were treated in the past. It cracks me up that one of the CAF a-holes is a newly elected board member.
An F-16 IP/ squadron ops officer buddy of mine told me he passed on doing a demo at a CAF sponsored airshow because of the way he was STILL TREATED like an idiot when he visited his local wing. He was told he didn't fly "Real airplanes" !! Guess what? No Vipers from his unit will ever be scheduled at any CAF benefit shows!
I visited my local unit down south about a year ago, there was alot of interest in my joining when I let slip that I was an A&P/IA. I was shown a fighter project, and I spent about 3 hours giving advice on how to do some sheet metal that was giving problems, etc. BUT when I asked about getting to fly in any of the units planes, the interest in my joining went to zero in a heartbeat, I was given a membership app (Please write us a big check) and shown the door.
When the CAF is broken up and everything auctioned off there are gonna be alot of guys standing there with smiles on their faces and checkbooks in hand.

Sorry to be such a crank but I've just spent a long very tiring day working on REAL Warbirds and this is something I've wanted to get off my chest for a long time.

_________________
All I did was press this red button here...

I'm sorry for the way you were treated. Like every group, there are good and not so good. My experience was quite the opposite as a youngster. I'm sure, had I been treated as you were, I would not have joined either. When I was first introduced to the CAF, I had a very warm reception by fatherly gentlemen. I had never, ever, even been for a flight in any type of airplane. My first flight was on the way back from Airsho '76 in Harlingen, Texas, in the tailgunner's seat of a Kate replica, with a replica Val on our wing. I got rides in a SeaFury, B-25, and a couple in a P-51 (including one doing dual acro flying slot to another P-51) before I had been in for a year. I wasn't overly worked, just helped wash a plane or two before going to an airshow.

This having been my experience, I try to "pay it forward", getting as many people a ride in a warbird as soon as I can. Yes, there are some stand-offish people in every group, but from what I've seen over my years with the CAF is that those are becoming fewer and fewer. Not to say everyone is an angel, but I've found the type you describe sprinkled through out the warbird community, and every other group I've belonged to.

_________________
Mike

Boy I would like to know what unit enemy ace was around as a kid!! Like bluehawk 15 says there are good and bad in every organization. Ask the two ROTC Cadets we payed for rides in the B-25 last month how they feel about us. They didn't even have to wash an airplane.

Paid to take a ride?

_________________

Like the Collings planes EAA Aluminum Overcast and other warbirds certain planes in the CAF Fleet sell rides to offset the cost of operating them. We (the local squadron) gave two deserving students a ride in The Yellow Rose B-25 for their help. 19 other citizens purchased rides also, a once in a lifetime event.

Randy,
Yes, paid. Costs of operating these aircraft in a volunteer organization have reached the point where free rides are not, and should not, be an option. Many units even ask for money from the unit members when flying in say a C-47 to an airshow or event. Money's tight.

_________________
Taylor Stevenson

Make no mistake about it, the Yellow Rose doesn't charge everyone who rides in her. Many warbird operators, like the Collings Foundation, will give a free ride to some, like WWII vets, and others. The Tex Hill Wing was kind enough to arrange sponsorship for the two JROTC cadets as a way to help the Yellow Rose. It was a way to thank the Yellow Rose for coming over to support their fly-in just for fuel. However, like you read above, we have to make money to keep the plane flying someway. We just spent $50K on the last overhaul of the left engine, and a bunch more on other repairs. Airshow revenue is shrinking/shrunk, and money received for going to a show barely covers the cost of getting there and back.

_________________
Mike

I've personally had some mixed feelings about the whole deal myself. I DID get treated just like EnemyAce has talked about right here in the South Texas area. A particular encounter with TORA comes to mind... I could name names but won't. I will say that of late that has changed a BUNCH and some of those "names" have recently treated me just fine.
That's partly the reason I posted some of the really nice photos from Hondo. When I see the guys doing what's right and encouraging the younger folks, I'm going to be a big cheerleader.

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

I've had similar experiences as Enemy Ace had as well back at the old CAF at the Harlingen airsho's of the 70's and 80's when I was a little kid. I was talked down to and made to feel "not worthy" of even being around some of the airplanes by some of the Colonels. But you know what, I've had other people in other organizations as well as individual warbird owners treat me exactly the same when I was young, so I don't consider that the CAF was unique in that, nor do I hold anything against them as a result of that. Even when I was a 10 to 12 year old back during the 70's, I could tell that I was not wanted in the CAF and that it was exclusively a "good-old boy's flying club". That was readily apparent to me, even back then. I like to think that that "old guard" viewpoint has all but disappeared from the CAF, as before long there will be nobody but the younger generations to carry the torch for the CAF.

I've long thought that the CAF should do more "outreach" programs to get the younger generations involved. Does anyone from the CAF go to local schools for history lessons and presentations on W.W.II history? Does the CAF have "youth" activities that could get them to come to the airport to get involved? Maybe a "wash the airplane" for a day project or help buck rivets on a scrap piece of metal where the kids could actually do something might stimulate their interest.

I hate to say it, but I think the CAF's days are numbered as the economic realities of rising operating costs, insurance, liability and rarity all will force the CAF to greatly shrink and become a shell of its former self. I really wish the CAF a long, prosperous future, but things will only get worse over time as nobody, except the most wealthy multi-millionaires will be able to afford to keep warbirds flying in the air, IMO.

My advice to any organization or owner who owns or operates a warbird. Don't be so quick to dismiss a little kid's questions or treat them disparagingly. The youth are our future of the movement. To quickly shoot down a little kid could leave a lasting impression on them and their propensity to get involved with warbirds. Fortunately for me, it didn't deter my interest in warbirds, as I just thought the "adults" that I encountered at the time were assholes. I encountered enough good people in the movement who were very supportive and really mentored me on my road to having a very successful aviation and soon-to-be warbird career.

Yeah, I understand that.

My question was about the ROTC cadets that, it appeared, were paid to go for a ride, not paid for a ride. Read what I quoted in my original post above -- "two ROTC cadets we payed" -- the object of the sentence is the cadets, which means that the money went to the cadets, and that made no sense to me.

Obviously it was just worded strange. Words mean stuff.

_________________

Ah! I understand now. Thanks for pointing out the quote Randy! I just automatically translated what was said from Oberspeak to English, being fluent (and somewhat related to Ober) in his language!

_________________
Mike