Warbird Information Exchange

Open the photos in an editing software such as PhotoShop. By playing with the contrast, you'll see the camo patterns on the spine and tops of wings -- notably absent on the USN scheme. While the USN upper transition appears somewhat feathered, it's not the splotches of the RN scheme.

Also, the USN scheme has very dark blue upper wing surfaces -- which is not seen on the RN examples.

If anyone has the book the Staggerwing Story, they have a picture of the Beech factory with about 5 staggerwings already painted with roundels and in the camo. While certainly some aircraft may have been built for the USN and diverted to Britain, it is clear that a number of them were specifically built for Britain and painted as such from the factory.

This is great stuff people!! Thank you so much, keep it coming!

Austin Hancock
Volunteer, 1941 Historical Aircraft Group

_________________
Austin Hancock
Pennington P-51 Memorial
www.lp-51.com

And a fair number were also produced under USAAF contracts so a quick net search will yield a fair number of photos of these airplanes in overall OD with USAAF markings.

So, while I think the USN tri-tone is pretty cool looking, I for one don't believe they served the RN in such a livery.

Hmm, well interpreting these old photos is a bit of a dark art. Personally, I find that your analysis focuses on real or imagined features that are easily confounded by things such as the unevenly exposed/printed photo (note how the sky tone is uneven) and blue-sensitive ortho film, which never renders blue very dark. And it ignores much more obvious features exactly consistent with the USN photo you posted and inconsistent with Brit practice, such as the dark area in front of the cockpit, the horizontal dark/light demarcation down the fuselage spine, the sharp demarcation at the lower wing root between the lighter fuselage and the darker upper wing, and the single-color vertical fin. With respect to the latter, a vertical fin whose shape was unbroken by camo never occurred on Brit camo schemes except on the type where the underside color wrapped up the fuselage sides and the fin was the underside color, and we know by the demarcation on the lower nose that this was not a scheme of that type.

I appreciate that the default assumption for these aircraft would have to be Brit camo, and that was where I started before seeing the photos. The photos meet their burden of persuasion by being impossible to reconcile with the standard Brit scheme. I'm about 90% sure at this point, as to the aircraft depicted in the 3 photos on this thread. Further, to twist British camo to be consistent with the photos, that color profile contains several elements that would never occur in Brit camo practice, and is less accurate than the CAF Wildcat. I am familiar with the painting specs and patterns and could draw a hypothetical pattern that would be correct for this aircraft, but it wouldn't match the photos, which of course is my point.

Austin, your bird probably was USN tri-tone blue. From the restoration progress shots on the HAG site I see that there is some time to work this out, so by all means listen to the experts and look over all their research as they continue to gather it. But I also recommend buying a copy of the AZModel kit and saving the painting guide for option 3, because if the experts dig up better evidence, they're eventually going to come around to it.

August

Oh, I forgot, 2 more things:

(1) Hats off to HAG for undertaking this research. It will be great to see a real Traveler Mk.I at Geneseo in its own Royal Navy identity, no matter which color scheme is chosen.

(2) For your listening pleasure while reading this thread, I suggest "Red Staggerwing" from Mark Knopfler and Emmylou Harris's album "All the Roadrunning." Actually, I'm not a great fan of the album. Knopfler has displayed unfortunate country tendencies throughout his career, and Ms Harris serves as his enabler here, with mostly indifferent results. However, when it comes to pop songs that reference classic airplanes by name, you can't be too picky, and "Red Staggerwing" is one of the better cuts on the record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzEvj_9ooFo

http://www.emmylou.net/atrr.html

August

Your theory would refute the practices of the RAF and RN -- who pretty much painted everything they acquired into line with their standard camo patterns -- from B-17s/24s all the way down to the handful of Piper L-4s that were evaluated. Even captured enemy aircraft were put into standard livery.

I can fully support defending a point of view but sorry trying to justify Travelers in USN tri-tone isn't supported photographically while the disruptive pattern can clearly be seen on the upper wings and spines in dozens of photos.

I agree with you on standard British practice, although we both know there were many exceptions, especially late in the war. I'll also happily agree that there were British-camouflagued Travelers, although I haven't seen a shot of an RN as opposed to RAF one.

I'm just talking about the planes in the 3 photos on this thread, of which the two whose serials can be discerned are close to the HAG a/c.

One can't produce a scheme that both conforms to British camo standards and that is consistent with the 3 photos in this thread. It can't be done. One has to explain away the fact, for example, that there is no evidence of camo demarcations on the fuselage sides and vertical fin (or anywhere else, really, but those are the only parts you can see clearly). One would have to posit that the aircraft had varied camo on top, like extra dark sea grey/dark slate grey, an underside color (presumably sky) on the bottom, and some intermediate solid color on the sides; or, perhaps, assume that the fuselage sides were EDSG and that the dark slate grey was applied only to the fuselage spine, rather than wrapping down to meet the underside color like on every other RN aircraft. One of those (hard to tell which) basically is what the color profile assumes; but there were no such schemes. Inventing a non-existent RN color scheme to conform to the photos is too much of a stretch for me, when so many elements match the USN scheme and it is plausible that they could have worn it. Note, in this connection, that we are talking about some of the earliest aircraft in the RN batch here -- FT461 was the first -- and it is hardly unlikely that the first several a/c were at an advanced stage of construction and already painted when diverted from the USN.

Anyway, the arguments are out there, people can look at the photos for themselves. I do hope that new photos emerge to resolve it.

August

I agree with you.

However, whilst your applied evidence is very strong that you are right, I still can't believe that the RN would have accepted flying around what was considered still potentially hostile airspace (in the case of the Lee-On-Solent based a/c in 1944) in a tri-tone blue marked a/c. I'd love the archivists at FAAM to prove that to be the case though

However, one point in this regard. That lovely colour shot of the 3 x USN Travellers in tri-tone posted above shows the fuselarge star-bar insignia, which I believe, was factory applied, was it not...?
If, these RN machines were diverted USN examples in tri-tone as suggested, then this insignia was likely in place?
If so, the period photos of RN machines shown above, clearly show no obviously overpainted star-bar insignia anywhere around the Type C.1 fuselage roundal......which would to me indicate a complete repaint and therefore, they are in temperate scheme, as the RN would almost certainley not have any tri-tone paint for touching up/overpainting prior to applying the C.1 roundals etc.

Thoughts.....??

USN Tri-color demarcation of the upper surfaces carries the very dark blue on the elevators to, and slightly up, the vertical stabilizer. This very dark blue would appear as a black line in the same plane as the elevator/vert stab. It is not present on any of the Traveler photos.

The upper surface of the lower wing is dark blue on the USN scheme and is absent on the Traveler.

The upper demarcation line on USN tri-color is a feathered/blended straight line whereas the RN upper demarcation appears as a wavy line made up of the two contrasting temperate sea colours. This wavy appearance is present on almost all the Travelers in photos.

Re: your observation that most camo schemes cover the vertical stab/rudder: I would say correct for monoplanes but I took a quick look at some Fairey Swordfish photos and quite a few appear to have stabs/fins that are the same colour as the undersides/sides of the aircraft -- i.e. single colour rather than camo as runs down the aircraft spine. I think some of this might be attributed to early camo schemes.

edited: Looked into my notes a bit further. A bit confusing but I believe this aircraft started life as USN BuNo 23692. The aircraft then became USAAF 44-67727 prior to becoming FT478 for the RN FAA. Upon return to the US, the aircraft was transferred to the USN where it received a new BuNo: 32876 (which was part of the block 32867 thru 32936 which belonged to a cancelled order for Howard GH-2 Nightingales). The aircraft then passed into civilian hands as N1183V, and then N582.

Austin's reference to use by 781 Sq from 1/44 to 1/45 can't be completely correct as the aircraft ship date out of Newark, NJ isn't until April, 1944. Not sure of transit times and depot storage times prior to issue to a squadron but I would presume a period of months -- making earliest issue likely June 1944.

Thank you soooooooo much for your advice and info. August We have just message the Fleet Arm Air Museum again with the image of FT-477 and we inquired about paint schemes. Look to me like the USN scheme is the answer though!

Austin Hancock
Volunteer, 1941 Historical Aircraft Group

_________________
Austin Hancock
Pennington P-51 Memorial
www.lp-51.com

We have just received word, as per the Beechcraft Heritage Museum, that our UC-43 left the US in USN "Navy Grey."

Austin Hancock
Volunteer, 1941 Historical Aircraft Group

_________________
Austin Hancock
Pennington P-51 Memorial
www.lp-51.com