Warbird Information Exchange

Several questions for/about the Horsemen. Hopefully Jim and/or Rich see this thread and can respond, but anybody who has info is welcome to answer.




1) Jim, how do you guys practice for the Horsemen season? I'm assuming all of you have unlimited surface aerobatic waivers. Obviously you can't shut down your home aerodrome every time you practice, so I'm guessing you guys have a special place to do this? Do you guys have any kind of "agreement" to use restricted military airspace for practice, or do you just go out in the middle of nowhere in some non-populated area to do that? When you guys do that practice, does the FAA make you submit a NOTAM for the place you're doing it at?

2) I've seen the Horsemen many times over the years, and it seems like you guys use different airplanes most of the time. I'm guessing that this is due to the logistics of flying your airplanes to all the different venues and the huge support trail that would require. Do owners let you guys borrow their airplanes at most of the shows, so you guys don't have to fly your personal Mustangs half-way across the U.S. all the time? When you do borrow other owners' Mustangs, do you notice a lot of variety in the performance between them? I know that subtle differences in the power of the engines can have huge effects in formation flying. If you do get a Mustang to borrow you're not familiar with, do you ever fly it first to determine it's differences and get acclimated or do you just "jump in and go" and figure it out during the routine?

3) Do you guys ever switch lead or roles, or is Jim always lead every time? Can Dan or Ship fly lead if they needed to - for example, if Jim got sick - or would you just cancel the performance?

4) Have you guys ever thought about adding another airplane and doing it as a 4 ship? Obviously all the military demonstration teams utilize the diamond formation a lot. How is that in a Mustang? Is the prop-wash off of lead a consideration when flying a diamond formation in Mustangs?

5) Do you guys have a "low" and a "high" show in case the weather is not the best or do you have just one routine? What is your minimum ceiling and vis requirement for your full show?

6) Would you guys ever consider a dissimilar formation for the Horsemen routine, such as mixing a Spit with the Mustang and/or Bearcat, etc.? Or do you like to keep all 3 airplanes the same for performance compatability reasons? Jim, would you ever consider using your own Spit for the Horsemen routine?

7) Have you guys ever considered a smoke system for the Horsemen, or is that just not practical and/or a have some reasons not to do it?

8. During a normal Horsemen routine, what is the max airspeed and G loading you guys typically encounter? What part of the show would that happen in?

9) Is the P-51 pitch sensitive at fast airspeeds? I'm guessing that the hardest time to fly fingertip for Dan and Ship is just prior to the pull-up on the "over-the-top" maneuvers? Is this correct?

10) If there is a broken plane or a sick pilot, would you guys press ahead with a 2 ship routine or cancel?




BTW, Jim, if you're reading this, I saw you guys at the Chino airshow both days and the Horsemen routine was fantastic! I never get tired of seeing your act. Great job!

Sorry for the long-winded questions, but these are things I've thought about over the years. Thanks in advance, Jim, if you respond to this! I know it will take some time to answer all the questions, but your replies are most appreciated!

All 3 of them lit out of Chino yesterday headed for Texas with Princess Liz, Double Trouble Two & whatever the 3rd mustang was (?). Think they stopped off at Prescott last night.

Edit: 3rd was *February* ? So many dang Mustangs it was hard to keep track of who was in what.

_________________
Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

A lot of answers to those questions are easily found at the AirshowBuzz website - www.asb.tv. Here's a thread that answers some of those questions specifically: http://www.asb.tv/forums/index.php?showtopic=8535&hl=

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Thanks for the link, Ryan, unfortunately that thread only addresses one of my questions.

Some of the other questions are addressed in other places. After all, it's their home site.
Another question addressed would be that they have done dis-similar formation such as the Corsair with two Bearcats.
OTOH there are a few of those questions might be best left unanswered on a public forum...

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Several questions for/about the Horsemen. Hopefully Jim and/or Rich see this thread and can respond, but anybody who has info is welcome to answer.

Hey these are great questions and thanks for the nice words. Last weekend was awesome but Chino is always such a great show. I’ll answer them under the questions.


1) Jim, how do you guys practice for the Horsemen season? I'm assuming all of you have unlimited surface aerobatic waivers. Obviously you can't shut down your home aerodrome every time you practice, so I'm guessing you guys have a special place to do this? Do you guys have any kind of "agreement" to use restricted military airspace for practice, or do you just go out in the middle of nowhere in some non-populated area to do that? When you guys do that practice, does the FAA make you submit a NOTAM for the place you're doing it at?

For “formal” practices we’ll go to Dan’s ranch where there’s an aerobatic box. Since I’m out front and my solo demo is basically the same sequence as the three ship show. I can practice is myself up here in Philly. There are a few local places that are legal to use.
----

2) I've seen the Horsemen many times over the years, and it seems like you guys use different airplanes most of the time. I'm guessing that this is due to the logistics of flying your airplanes to all the different venues and the huge support trail that would require. Do owners let you guys borrow their airplanes at most of the shows, so you guys don't have to fly your personal Mustangs half-way across the U.S. all the time? When you do borrow other owners' Mustangs, do you notice a lot of variety in the performance between them? I know that subtle differences in the power of the engines can have huge effects in formation flying. If you do get a Mustang to borrow you're not familiar with, do you ever fly it first to determine it's differences and get acclimated or do you just "jump in and go" and figure it out during the routine?

We’ve only had to borrow planes on two occasions – when we were in Duxford and two years ago at Chino when Ed and I sued the museum’s two Mustangs. I flew Spam Can and Ed flew Wee Willy. There are differences, the largest for me is when the ailerons are re-rigged to make them lighter, and/or when the bobweight is cut. I don’t like that so I’ve got to adjust to that. I keep Bald Eagle stock with heavier control forces which I prefer. At Dux I did a few flights in Ferocious Frankie and it was a nice, straight airplane. The biggest thing I had to learn with that was the injected -724 Merlin. Otherwise they’re not too different. Princess is the biggest difference, because it is more laterally unstable and more pitchy than the D model. I don’t run very high power (max of about 42”/2700) so there’s lots of extra energy for Ed and Dan. Dan’s TF is better in the front than the wing, because it’s not as fast as the stock D models.

I don’t mind flying Bald Eagle far; I think it’s good for it and it’s a nice way to clear your mind. I use it for business too and that takes me all over the east coast in all kinds of weather. Plus I like flying her.
---
3) Do you guys ever switch lead or roles, or is Jim always lead every time? Can Dan or Ship fly lead if they needed to - for example, if Jim got sick - or would you just cancel the performance?

I don’t fly wing anymore during the shows, but will play around out there when practicing to see the effect of a different maneuver and what the wing guys need from me for us to safely execute it. I used to fly right wing in the 90’s on both the 6 of Diamonds and the earlier “Four Horsemen” show, but I really enjoy the 4-D aspect of leading more than flying wing. Shipley will fill in for me if I’m unavailable (like at Nellis or Tyndall last year) and they’ll do a two ship more akin to the sequence Ed and I did in the early 2000s.
----

4) Have you guys ever thought about adding another airplane and doing it as a 4 ship? Obviously all the military demonstration teams utilize the diamond formation a lot. How is that in a Mustang? Is the prop-wash off of lead a consideration when flying a diamond formation in Mustangs?

In the mid 90s we had a 4 ship but it was logistically challenging. Last weekend we had Steve Hinton as #4 flying as a photo plane through loops and barrel rolls, and it was cool to see all 4 planes together upside down or rolling. Maybe in the future?

As long as you are properly and safely stacked you’re out of the wake. You never permit prop to prop overlap, and you can feel a bit of instability that tells you you're getting too close.

As far as wake, the slot plane with its bow wake has an effect on the lead plane, not the reverse. I need to trim down when Ed or Dan are in the slot, otherwise I'll climb about 500' per minute.
----

5) Do you guys have a "low" and a "high" show in case the weather is not the best or do you have just one routine? What is your minimum ceiling and vis requirement for your full show?

Yup. If I don’t have 2500’ I just fly through the vertical maneuvers and add horizontal turns, etc. I stick to the Heritage Flight limits (1500’ ceiling 3 mile vis) to be consistent in deciding whether to fly. If you've got weird weather over water with haze that's another factor to consider. It's kind of a judgment call at the time.
----

6) Would you guys ever consider a dissimilar formation for the Horsemen routine, such as mixing a Spit with the Mustang and/or Bearcat, etc.? Or do you like to keep all 3 airplanes the same for performance compatability reasons? Jim, would you ever consider using your own Spit for the Horsemen routine?

Sure. We’ve done that for some time now. In the 90’s when Ed had his FG1D we did a two ship with it on the wing and I'd lead in Bald Eagle or Frenesi. At Key West last month I led in the -4 Corsair with the Bearcats on the wing. Working the spitfires in is the next plan.
----
7) Have you guys ever considered a smoke system for the Horsemen, or is that just not practical and/or a have some reasons not to do it?

Not really. By the time you get the tank, pump, approvals, etc. it’d be too much. As it is it’s hard enough to keep them in the air without adding another system.
----

8. During a normal Horsemen routine, what is the max airspeed and G loading you guys typically encounter? What part of the show would that happen in?

350mph at the intro at the surface for the start. 3.5g max for me (that results in about 4.5 on the wing planes to stay in formation). Max g is between 45 and 120 degrees nose up, and then when bringing the nose around on the back side of the vertical maneuvers. Light g in the beginning and end.
----

9) Is the P-51 pitch sensitive at fast airspeeds? I'm guessing that the hardest time to fly fingertip for Dan and Ship is just prior to the pull-up on the "over-the-top" maneuvers? Is this correct?

The C model is much moreso than the D, although a D without the bobweight can be pitchy and higher speeds and g. The toughest time for the guys is when I’m pulling too hard ☺ and during the repositions when I’m rolled about 110 degrees. The inside wingman has no orienting objects except for me, and usually the sun is right in their face. The vertical quarter cloverleaf is also a challenging and dynamic wing maneuver. Initial pull and over the top are not bad since the g is lightest there (but still about 1.5 over the top).
----

10) If there is a broken plane or a sick pilot, would you guys press ahead with a 2 ship routine or cancel?

Sure. We did it for the first practice Friday when Dan’s tailwheel tire failed.
----

BTW, Jim, if you're reading this, I saw you guys at the Chino airshow both days and the Horsemen routine was fantastic! I never get tired of seeing your act. Great job!

Sorry for the long-winded questions, but these are things I've thought about over the years. Thanks in advance, Jim, if you respond to this! I know it will take some time to answer all the questions, but your replies are most appreciated!
Thanks again for the nice words. It’s really a privilege to be able to do this, especially at Chino. jb

===============================

Awesome, thanks for answering the questions, Jim! A follow-up:



I'm not familiar with the bobweight system on the Mustang. I'm assuming this is some sort of "artificial feel" system for the elevator, so it gets harder to pull at higher G's? Why would someone cut the bobweight? Without a bobweight, is it easier to over-G the Mustang? Is there any kind of artificial feel system for the ailerons as well?

BTW, you guys make formation flying look so easy. There's a direct correlation there, with the easier it looks, usually the harder it is to do. I'm no stranger to formation flying, as I've done quite a bit over the years, and unless you have done it, you can't fully appreciate how difficult some of the maneuvers are. I always hated being the wingman on the outside of the turn in a rolling maneuver like a barrel roll, especially flying an airplane with not enough power to maintain that position.

The one maneuver I'm always impressed with is when the Snowbirds do that massive 6 or 7 plane "line abreast" loop. I always thought that flying line abreast in a vertical maneuver was extremely challenging. They make it look so easy, though. When you are the wingman, and you're looking 90 degrees to your side, concentrating on flying off of lead, trying to remain perfectly line abreast, it is somewhat disorienting and not easy to do!

BTW, I saw you at Chino Jim, and I thought about going over and saying hi and introducing myself, but you were in a group of people engaged in conversation and I didn't want to interrupt, so I passed. I'll catch you sometime later at a future show, I'm sure.

Congrats once again on a well done show, and you guys have my respect, especially knowing that you all volunteer your time, money and effort to pull this off so the masses can have an enjoyable airshow experience!

If lead keeps smooth application of G, energy is kept up for the wingmen to follow. Plus Ed flies so close, it is actually easier to station keep during the rolling manuevers. The routine is flown as a constantly changing flow, where the formation is seldom if ever in a static flight attitude. It is a very fluid 'dance' program that with gentle G build-up keeps the whole formation in high energy.
The most weird sensation was when Ed would fly close-slot underneath lead; lead actually had to keep the stick pulled into his gut, because the bow wake of the Mustang underneath was always trying to push the nose 'down' on lead's airplane. It was almost like 'zen' flying.....where no matter what you felt, you just manipulated the controls to make it 'point' the right way for the maneuvers. Strange sensations, but it made you very consciously be the 'master' over the disobedient stallion.
VL

Thanks for your input, Vlado! I agree, having a smooth and predictable lead is everything! I've flown with crappy leads and ones that had "golden hands", and it makes a HUGE difference!

One of the things about formation acro that seldom gets mentioned and is very important is the voice cadence of lead. A good lead is not only smooth, he's predictable. This is extremely important to both wings and the slot if a diamond routine. A good lead will cadence his voice in an EXACT cadence so that preparation commands and execution commands come at an exact timing sequence for the rest of the formation.
A good team lead is in fact so good at this that the rest of the formation actually executes totally together on expectation of lead's execution calls.
The slot can be felt to the point where a friend, also a Thunderbird lead, commented to me once that he could actually FEEL not only if the slot was out of position, but exactly how FAR out of position and to which side slot was out.
Dudley Henriques

_________________
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship

6) Would you guys ever consider a dissimilar formation for the Horsemen routine, such as mixing a Spit with the Mustang and/or Bearcat, etc.? Or do you like to keep all 3 airplanes the same for performance compatability reasons? Jim, would you ever consider using your own Spit for the Horsemen routine?

Sure. We’ve done that for some time now. In the 90’s when Ed had his FG1D we did a two ship with it on the wing and I'd lead in Bald Eagle or Frenesi. At Key West last month I led in the -4 Corsair with the Bearcats on the wing. Working the spitfires in is the next plan.
----

Jim,
Could this also be done with 3 different types - like when you guys do the naval horsemen routine would you be able to do a Corsair / Bearcat / Hellcat sinces Dan's F6F is now in that beautiful looking new paint scheme... Whatever you guys are flying - YOU ALL ROCK !!!!! Thanks for all you do...
Mike

Hi Mike

I haven't flown the Hellcat so I'd be guessing at this point, but from my understanding of its performance it would probably be better in lead rather than on the wing. Visually the Corsair should probably be up front, but performance will ultimately dictate where. The concern with the 2800 is large power changes resulting in an idle or low power setting that permits the airloads to drive the prop followed by high power applications. You want to keep the boost to a range that always provides drive to the prop, and if the Hellcat is up front the Corsair and Bearcat might be required to pull the power too far off on the backside of the vertical maneuvers. We had the reverse situation when we ran Ed's FG1D with the Mustang; due to the Corsair's climb rate Ed was almost at idle going uphill, but the Mustang ran away from the Corsair going downhill, so Ed would be going from low boost to high boost very quickly as my nose fell through the horizon. That is probably why his main bearing grenaded itself back in 1997.

Thanks for the nice words. We had a blast at Chino last weekend. jb

Jim, I don't know if you saw my question up above or not. Can you talk to us about the bobweight issue?

I wouldn't call it an artificial feel system; it helps to dampen stick movement to increase stability. It's a chunk of lead (I think) at the base of the control stick apparatus and if memory serves it's around 25 lbs or so. I'm sure someone has the exact weight. Some cut it in half, and some just take it out. I leave mine in. Rich tells me it was to help with stability for shooting the guns in turbulent conditions.

It's more pitchy without it, so you could get to 7+g easier (I think the g limits for a new airplane were positive 7.5g + 50% safety factor) but that sort of flying would just be abusive these days. Ailerons have a curtain that help with their efficiency but no artificial feel systems. Some guys can flip around the trim tab controls to make the ailerons lighter.

jb

Gem of a thread guys! Thanks Jim for letting us hear it "right from the horse's mouth" so to speak!

Zack

_________________
Volunteer Coordinator/Curator - Military Aviation Museum - Virginia Beach, VA
"America's Flying Museum"
http://www.militaryaviationmuseum.org