Warbird Information Exchange

Hi savillle,

Wow, you may not believe it but I'm laughing my ass off right now
because I've been in almost the same situation and order for the past
couple years. Got the PPL in 2002 via C150/152 & warriors. Did a
bit of complex time (6 hrs) then full time warriors right after the PPL.
Immediately went to a Citabria... and went through the same kinds
of things you're describing - and hell I just thought it was me.
Ironically I too started the instrument stuff and am just a couple of
hours of practice from finishing it up. Tailwheel time has sat since
I've been concentrating on the instrument stuff.
I've got 33 hrs in the citabria now. Haven't done any aerobatics
other than spin training and practice... - not quite the same thing,
but still a lot of fun. Ironically I haven't flown a T6 yet, but come
monday I will.. courtesy of chuck g. Loved reading of your
experiences.. thanks for the post!

henning

_________________
"The best way to control the future is to create it".

by the way.. my 6 hrs of complex time so far is all in an arrow as well...
how much total time do you have now? how about tailwheel?

henning

_________________
"The best way to control the future is to create it".

Hiya RER,

Actually I haven't flown at Hamton during the hottest part of the summer. I do really enjoy that wind flaw at the hangar end of the runway though ;^)

Formation in Navions? That sounds really nice - woudl like to get a piece of that.

MEeting up would be good too. I heard there used to be pancake brekkie fly-ins at Sanford - been there a couple of times. We might meet there.

Saville

Got my PPL Aug 8th, 2004.

Total time - about 115 hours

Tailwheel - 15.

Don't do this, unless you have a death wish...

A FAST wingman card is an essential step for most warbird pilots, but it isn't for everyone. Here are some things to consider.

Unless you are FAST qualified or military trained don't even consider formation flying. This applies to J-3 cubs, Navions and P-51s.

The first step to becoming FAST qualified is attending ground school. This is usually 2 days and teaches the fundamentals of formation flying. Without this you are dangerous.

Always formation train with a FAST qualified safety pilot. This will accomplish two very important things. 1 He will keep you alive, and 2 He will help you get in the proper position to fly wing. This will be very uncomfortable at first, as it is much closer than most new formation pilots want to be, but it is the only way to learn.

Formation flying is like that scene in one of the Star Wars movies, when Yoda yells at Luke Skywalker for saying about the force, "I'll give it a try". Yoda says, "NO, either do or do not. There is no in between". Don't "sort of" formation fly. A formation flight begins with a very extensive briefing on the ground, followed by a hopefully very discipline and clean flight. The most extensive part of the process is the de-brief.

Don't fly formation with people you don't know. Do you really want to put your life in the hands of a stranger?

Formation flying is a perishable skill. You cannot fly formation once or twice a year and maintain proficiency.

Formation flying is extremely gratifying, but it isn't for everyone. Some people take a few lessons and decide that it isn't for them. Nothing wrong with that, as there’s definitely an elevated element of risk. Also, it’s not something you’re going to learn in a weekend. Get 20 formation flights under your belt, with plenty of good two ship work and some four ship experience, and you’ll be ready for your card.

BTW, my recommendation is to buy a T-6 and fly it hard for a year before thinking about the Mustang. If you haven’t got other high performance warbird time the insurance company is going to basically make you do this anyway.

Steve Patterson

100% RIGHT ON TARGET STEVE!!!! I HOPE EVERYONE READS THAT AND HEEDS THE ADVICE! ALTHOUGH FAST CARDS AREN'T REQUIRED EXCEPT IN WAIVEDED AIRSPACE IF YOU TRY IT WITHOUT THE TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE YOU'LL BE A SMOK'IN HOLE!

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!

Steve and Jack,

If you look up a few entries you'll see that I plan to get Formation training from an Ex-Navy fighter pilot as my IP, and one of his AF buddies as the IP in the other plane.

It wouldn't result in a FAST card, but I'm not certain the training would be any less complete.

What is your opinion?

Thanks

These guys will certainly have formation skills, however, the Navy and Air Force each use different hand signals and I believe that the modern procedures for join-ups ect, differ from what we do in airplanes with less power. I believe that FAST uses a mix of AF and Navy hand signals.

You will still need to get FAST training before you find most fellow warbird owners willing to fly with you. One of the big reason's for FAST was to standardize the signals and procedures so you always know what to expect. It doesn't always work that way, unfortunatley, but at least there is a set of standard we are all trying to work towards.

Hi Saville!

I'm with Steve and the others. I'm just a newby doing the same path you're doing to fly warbirds. I've been fortunate to be able to do a lot of formation time in the T28. I've seen the guys I fly with absolutely refuse to fly formation with pilots without a FAST card unless they are very well known to them personally and have a lot of hours together.

They hit it on the head. One of the main issues is hand signals. FAST standardizes that.

Thanks for the post's! Keep them coming! I'm going the same route so having your information and experiences to read is helpful and encouraging.

Orvis

_________________
DEEP THOUGHTS BY KIDS:
"If we could just get everyone to close their eyes and visualize world peace for an hour, imagine how serene and quiet it would be until the looting started. Age 15 "


Deep Thoughts,
Jack Handy

Nothing wrong with that at all. My instructor was a former Eagle driver and 1000+ hour IP in T-38's. When you're ready you can arrange for a FAST checkpilot to give you a checkride (keep in mind you'll need at least a three ship, and most probably a four ship for this).

You can also purchase the Darton formation ground school tapes through Stoney and Kathy at NATA. The two tapes have John Harrison giving his ground school (for T-28s, but it doesn't matter). This will give you and your instructors all the basic information you will need on how to fly a standardized FAST formation flight. There's also a standards book that covers all the hand signals, as well as being covered in the video. The video also has lots of good in cockpit footage, so you can see the proper sight picture for rejoins, section landings, etc.

Sir Steve, well said. Nothing like having somebody try to join up on you and because they are locked on to you and are not seeing that they are closing in and will fly right through you.

Cheers,

Lynn

Hi guys,
I just found out that there is a FAST clinic in nearby kenosha WI and
it sounds like they do one there just about every year before OSH.

My question is:
If you attend the ground school, are there opportunities to go fly along
and see how its done, or is this not realistic because they'll often have
the trainee up front with an instructor in the back?

My thought is whether they use 3-4 ac in a formation whether all would
be full or some solo to practice with. even to ride in back of the pro?

Being along for the ride just to see how its done would be an adventure
in itself.

Can anyone thats been through this offer up an opinion? (nicely..please..)

_________________
"The best way to control the future is to create it".

Since this thread has denigrated to the topic of civilian formation flying...

The key to having a safe formation flight has nothing to do with the physical stick-and-rudder act of keeping in fingertip position -- I can teach any monkey to do that reasonably well on the first flight.

What is more important -- and the reason Steve harped on the long hours of academics -- is knowing exactly what the guy in the other airplane is going to do. It's having a set of standards, a contract, which every flight lead and wingman is going to adhere to.

This is crucial because formation flying is a constant case of falling out of, and getting back in, position. The flight lead has to know *exactly* which direction his wingman is going to be going so that he can plan for how he's going to maneuver the flight. The wingie has to know the same, so that he can get back in position without causing a mid-air!

I don't know exactly how much time the FAST guys spend teaching formation, but it's probably not enough! The military students I teach all ready have 250+ hours in jets by the time they get to me. In that previous experience, they have had at least 40 dedicated formation training flights, as well as flying formation just going to-and-from the training areas.

The problem is that my students, even with that previous experience, still make critical formation errors *daily*. In the two years I've been teaching T-38s (probably 400+ sorties) I have had to physically intervene (i.e., take control of the jet) to prevent a midair collision literally dozens and dozens of times. And this is WITH pilots who, by civilian standards, have a lot of formation flying experience!

So, formation flying is not something to be taken lightly. While even an average pilot can easily pick up the stick and ridder skills needed to just fly close to another airplane, that doesn't mean it is a safe or smart thing to do....

On the topic of building skills to solo a Mustang, I have the same goal you do, Saville. I've had a PPL for over 10 years, over 1,000 hours of military jet time (800 hours in the F-15E, 400 hours in the T-38C)....and I still have no idea when I'm going to ever be qualified to fly 'the big iron'! It takes dollar$ to go get T-6 time, and the USAF doesn't pay officers enough to have that kind of expendable cash around unused!

Hope to see you there, though. These old guys can't be around to fly piston fighters forever, so at some point us young guys are gonna get a crack at it!

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the thoughts. I like the idea of getting the FAST materials first. I imagine that whatever instruction I get from my Navy buddy will be the rudiments. A FAST card will probably be somewhere in teh Master Plan.

As for the long trip to warbird iron...I have no idea how long it will end up being, nor exactly which way to go (other than my very basic plan) but I don't worry overmuch about that. It'll take whatever it takes. I'll work to get the skills and hours and let the future take care of itself.

Many thanks

Got my Complex endorsement this morning. Insurance requirements at the FBO said I had to get 5 hours dual in the Arrow to be able to rent it. CFII said I nailed it a few rides back but we had to do the 5 of course. So today we went out and played - 60 degree banked turns. A little fooling around with mixture prop and power to adjust fuel flow, and a nice crosswind landing.

So another small step towards that Mustang is accomplished.....

Next?

ACRO!

time for that free wheeling among the clouds, and more work on taildragger-asphalt landings.