P-51's during the firebombing of Dresden

[JDK]

Today I did a tour (I'm a volunteer tour guide at my local aviation museum) of a club made up of people whose membership was based on having survived major heart surgery. At the end of the tour I noticed one of the women had a strong accent - actually in answer to a question, she said 'Ja'. I asked her where she was from, she said Berlin, and that she'd been there throughout W.W.II.

Given the fact that she'd beaten the odds two - three times at least (emigrating to a victorious nation from a defeated one may not be potentially fatal but is certainly tough) to be here today, I wish I'd had more time to listen to her thoughts.

I also wondered how those of us who are quick to offer our opinion from secondhand and sometimes simplistic perspectives might feel about pontificating to someone like that, face to face?

Just some thoughts.

Last edited by JDK on Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

[JDK]

Aside from stirring up sh*t, what is the purpose of this thread?

My question exactly.

The original post (from a member in Germany) was a perfectly reasonable and carefully couched question to counter some political manipulation of history currently underway. In that sense it's a lot more important than much of the guff we (self included) argue about here.

Regards,

[Iclo]

Interresting post, as I said before, I'm not here to defend Germans who were completly responsible of the war, but how not been against bombing of cities ?
I have the impression that for some people here, all the German citizens were 100% Nazi and conscious that what their countries was doing.
Before answerging "you don't fought the nazi, you don't have the right to critises what happen during bombing", I have to say that this opinion is not coming from me, but from a people of my family, who was part of the Resistance, was arrested and deported in concentration camp... She survived, coming home being definitely a different people.

Visibly, in the "justification" of the cities bombing one fact is omitted: a part of the cities bombed weren't german but French, Belgian, Dutch. So the principle "Citizen were nazi and guilties too" is false.

I have the ultimate respect for what the Allieds did during WWII and not trying to criticize the decision or the strategy, but only try to explain that for different reasons the memory and feeling about this period of history is different from the two side of pond...

[dred]

The original post (from a member in Germany) was a perfectly reasonable and carefully couched question to counter some political manipulation of history currently underway. In that sense it's a lot more important than much of the guff we (self included) argue about here.

Regards,

"political manipulation of history currently underway"?? Pardon me for being dense, but please elaborate.

[the330thbg]

enough

Last edited by the330thbg on Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

[JDK]

The original post (from a member in Germany) was a perfectly reasonable and carefully couched question to counter some political manipulation of history currently underway. In that sense it's a lot more important than much of the guff we (self included) argue about here.

"political manipulation of history currently underway"?? Pardon me for being dense, but please elaborate.

It's 3am here, so excuse the brevity. Again, the first post by the thread originator. Secondly try 'Google' 'Dresden' & 'news'. There's some good data there.

[Django]

I have the impression that for some people here, all the German citizens were 100% Nazi and conscious that what their countries was doing.

I would think that especially here, that would not be the case. I get into this discussion all the time with friends who are not currently obsessed with WWII.

[dred]

It's 3am here, so excuse the brevity. Again, the first post by the thread originator. Secondly try 'Google' 'Dresden' & 'news'. There's some good data there.

Yup, that's extremely brief by your standards if you don't mind me saying so. Rather than spend the day reading through all the irrelevant material that a "Dresden + News" search would generate, I'd prefer for you to expand on your political manipulation of history comment.

[airnutz]

We all know JDK can...and will, speak for hisself when he's back. From what I gathered from
his uncharacteristically brief and cryptic comment, he's referring to the right-winger extremists
..skinheads, neo-nazi's, etc. are attempting to equate the Firebombing of Dresden as holocaust
or Hiroshima type "war crime" visited upon the residents by the allies.

From an article link to follow...
(quote)
Dresden Mobilized Against Neo-Nazi Darkness
2010 February, 17th
Phil Butler

Two days ago was the 65th anniversary of the WWII bombings of the German city of Dresden. It was also the scene of a rather fascinating aspect of life here in Germany – peaceful division. Some 10,000 Neo-Nazi’s were slated to march on Dresden as usual, but peaceful left-wing opposition stood in their way for the first time. A human chain of Dresden residents, intent on living the present and future, stood in counter-protest before the onslought of extremist right-wing marchers.
(end quote)
http://www.pamil-visions.net/dresden-mo ... ss/212166/

[Iclo]

I have never heard to story of the 'The senseless Allied firebombing of Holland, Belgium and France during WWII'.., so please, do tell!

I don't know who you quote exactly, I never said that the bombing mission during WWII were "senseless"

But do you really ignore that a major part of the bombing raid during WWII in Europe, occured on target in these countries ?

When the Allied destroyed the railways node close to my home, some of the bombs hit the ground 4 miles away from the target... Killing civilians.
I don't critise the USAF or the RAF, but sincerly I hope you are able to understand that the feeling of the victim's famillies can be different than your point of view about the remembrance of WWII.

Regards

[dred]

Thanks for the link, Airnutz!

[the330thbg]

Enough

Last edited by the330thbg on Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

[k5083]

Although the Allies never achieved a firestorm outside of Germany, or in most cities within Germany, they did completely and intentionally destroy several French, Dutch and Belgian towns and small cities. Read any memoir by a bomber guy and you will see references to many such raids, long after the pretense of precision bombing of such things as rail yards had been abandoned.

The issue is of course viewed differently depending on perspective. Many French, Dutch and Belgians think that the Allies were insufficiently sensitive to local civilian casualties and destruction in their enthusiasm to wipe out Germans wherever they could be found. There does seem to have been something of a "we had to destroy the village in order to liberate it" mentality at times, even extending to experimental uses of an early form of napalm in French towns and (unintentonally, but recklessly) on French civilians. From the American or British standpoint, these French, Dutch and Belgians may appear insufficiently appreciative of being liberated and of the cost and difficulty of doing this. Iclo has not overstated anything and only asks for understanding of the other point of view.

August

[Baldeagle]

Caen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CLx_PG51J0




-

[rreis]

War needs... suddenly I remembered the killings of Operation "Jerico", the false releasing of some resistant prisoners from the Amiens jail. The ends justify the means or where do you stop? It's very easy to judge not being there, at the time, and having to do the thing or take the decisions yourself (this is not aimed at anyone in particular).