P-51's during the firebombing of Dresden

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:08 am

Here in Europe there has been a fair amount of news coverage of the memorial ceremonies centered around the Firebombing of Dresden germany during WW2.
I read somewhere that P-51's flew strafing missions over the city. I am wondering if one of the mustang experts out there would know if this is correct and what units would have been involved. Dresden is pretty far east, I wouldn't think they would have operated that far out. OTOH, American bombers took part so they would have had fighter escort.
Not something they had to be proud of.
If you ever get the chance to visit, Dresden is an incredibly beautiful city, very much worth the trip. The effort and detail taken to rebuild the city center is a modern miracle.

jtramo · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:39 pm **Posts:** 359

I would assume that its kind of hard to strafe a city when there is a firestorm.

As far as the job and being proud of it, I don't think anyone was proud of what they did in that respect.

JimH · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:34 am

I believe in forgiving...but not forgetting

jim harley

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:23 am

jtramo wrote:

I would assume that its kind of hard to strafe a city when there is a firestorm.

This.

TJJ · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:41 am

This is one of a number of myths about the series of raids on Dresden by the RAf and USAAF which are perpetuated by people with political agendas or sloppy historians who do not check their sources properly. Like the number of casualties where Goebbels cynically added a nought to the figures, which are still quoted in school textbooks - as I saw for myself recently.

I recommend Frederick Taylor's excellent book: "Dresden - Tuesday 13 February 1945" as an unbiased and scholarly account for a comprehensive look at the background to the raid, the raid itself and its terrible aftermath. He covers the alleged strafing in an extensive appendix.

There was an escort of P51 Mustangs accompanying the daylight raid, some of which and come from bases on the continent. There was also contact with German fighters over the city, which led to a dogfight involving at least three aircraft. This pursuit may have come down to ground level, and the experts believe this is the basis of the strafing story. People may have heard gunfire, but were not deliberate targets. Certainly the Propaganda Ministry did not pick up on any incident, which would have been widely circulated to the neutral press as an atrocity.

The fighters involved belonged to the 356th FG. Some were later involved in strafing - far to the west of Dresden. One aircraft was destroyed in an explosion over Bavaria, but that was from an escort of a group of bombers which lost direction because of cloud and accidentally bombed Prague.

Mgawa · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:49 am

Maybe there could be interest to also read some title, if exist, written by somebody who have survived this raid.

ChrisDNT · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:08 pm

Targeting civil crowds with military weapons is by itself, according to Geneva conventions, a warcrime.

Look at this document...

... general Ismay (2) is clearly speaking of "acts of terror".

So, please, no more this PC talk about good and evil, during WWII there were only different levels of evil, as in any war.

(1)

Military commanders like "Bomber Harris" and Curtis E. Le May were perfectly conscious of the fact.

"Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Curtis E. Le May"

(2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastings_Lionel_Ismay

ChrisDNT · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:13 pm

Btw, the discovery of the horrible nazi concentration camps have also been some kind of political help for allied powers, as by the end of the war, public opinions either in Britain or the USA were beginning to think that the leveling of cities in Europe was simply "over the top" and quite contrary to the very humanity values the war was supposed to be fought for.

ChrisDNT · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:23 pm

"People may have heard gunfire, but were not deliberate targets."

I once read a famous P-51 US pilot (I won't give his name, as I can't find presently the exact quote) who said he was used to shot at German civil people in the fields, "because they were feeding the German army".

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:25 pm

Funny JimH how nobody ever thinks to mention anything about "Uncle Joe's" concentration camps that had been in business since the revolution in 1918. I suppose since we gave him stuff he's a good guy even though he killed far more people than the Nazis ever did. And then there's that little cold war thing that lasted into the 1990's.

And TJJ, the people refering to the strafing by USAAF Mustangs were survivors, most of the strafing was of people trying to get into/near the river for protection. There have been interviews with numerous survivors on TV.

Mgawa · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:05 pm

I love this one

Quote:

"Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal. Curtis E. Le May"

But my favorite is:

Quote:

˝May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't˝ Gen Patton

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:59 pm

Patton did not have much mercy for anyone, not even his own soldiers in the hospital. I'd guess that unlike Ike, and others he thought of greatness in terms of glory and fame, and mercy only got in the way.

Mustangs returning from some missions in the later part of the war would go down and strafe. I am sure they hit some civilians, such as when hitting a train or rail yard. I don't think civilians alone would be the main target of many of these pilots.

I was in Hamburg on the anniversary of the fire bombing there.

hercules130 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:09 pm

Don't know about the strafing in Dresden however I believe we all know that the strafing of German civilians was not condoned or permitted by US leadership, I will not speak for English leadership because I do not know and the English out look on terror bombing was quite different than that of the US. Not pointing fingers here, the English had reasons to be more aggressive to this end, reasons they earned in the blood of innocent populace. I am not saying that a few individuals who no doubt at the time because of their positions did represent the USAAF to the German people did not commit reprehensible acts such as strafing civilians.

In addition it most be noted that Dresden was not a mistake or accident it was one of the few times weapon combination's worked as they were intended to work every time. Another great read on the subject and the Allied European bombing offensive in general is Master's of the Air.

Gary

jtramo · **Joined:** Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:39 pm **Posts:** 359

Anything that the conspiracy theory camp claims the US or British did (or a single person/squad acting alone) once or twice the Germans did as approved policy. I also believe that more Germans were killed by Germany in WW2 than by Allied Forces. Quoting Generals passing thoughts or producing obscure internet documents does not make a case for Germany. All respect to the fallen from all sides.

Mgawa · **Posted:** Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:31 pm

My cousin was war prisoner in Germany during the WW2 and his first wife lost her life during the bombing of the Hamburg.

Bill- no, I do not glorify not make and idol any of the persons quoted above, just wanted to note some of their interesting quotes.

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P-51's during the firebombing of Dresden

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