Warbird Information Exchange

I was first at Sebago Lake in 1988. I wonder how many of us (including other VERY well known) salvagers have been to look for these Corsairs! I know of a couple more than myself (not claiming any notoriety). I might share my sidescan and videos.

Too many people thought that the only place they could find the planes were in lakes and I have actually passed some wreck hunter I knew going the other direction looking for the same plane!!!!!!!!! It was at this time that I decided to look for other forms of abandoned or lost, as in buried planes.

Merry Christmas to all!
Pirate Lex
http://www.BrewsterCorsair.com

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An ego is no match for gravity.

Hi Richard, could you ask the Colonel for more info on that Duck? Is this a USN bird that could now be recovered? Did the pilot survive? Thanks and Happy Holidays!

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All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)

So there are actually 3 more Corsairs in Lake Sebago and 2 in the Kennebec river? Are any of those recoverable (i.e. no war graves status and / or substantially intact enough to be restored)?

I would love to see some more photo's of any of these aircraft, and if you have any more details on these other Corsairs I would love to hear about them. I haven't been able to find the magazine at the local bookstores.

Thanks

If those Corsairs were lend-lease aircraft does Untied Kingdom still own them? How would that legally play out?

Just asking.

Tim

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Such as up by Williams Lake?

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Well if I can't rollerskate around my playpen while smoking and drinking a beer, I'm staying home..

First these aircraft were first discovered by me and the late Jim Chichetto in the fall of 1990. That winter I contacted the MOD about doing a recovery, I received a letter back from White Hall explaining that these aircraft were still owned by the UK and that it was their wish that these airframes be left in place.
Later in 1991 I received a phone call from the Commonwealth Wargrave’s headquarters in Ottawa Canada, the nature of this call was to confirm to me that these two crash sites have been declared Wargraves by the RN.

So let discuss the wrecks themselves, the photo in the article is very misleading JT160 is not sitting upright but inverted at about a 50 degree angle the right wing is located about 100 yards North of the wreckage and the depth is not 325 as stated in the story but it actually sits at 329.4 feet and the airframe is sitting on what is known as Frye Leap Ridge. As for JT132 it is located about 1.3 miles away from JT160 and is at a depth of 370 feet and also sits on Frye Leap. JT132 broke its back on impact do to the fact it went inverted into the water this was due to the fact that SubLt. Gill flew thru the Water Spout that SubLt. Knox’s plane put up when he hit the water. JT132 sits upside down with the left wing hanging off the ridge and it is missing the right elevator.

Now both of these aircraft are sitting on Frye Leap Ridge both of them are on the edge of a drop off that goes down to 400+feet of water. So any idea of trying to recover either of these aircraft has to take this into consideration which Jim and I did. We came up with the conclusion that it wouldn’t be cost effective to try to recover these two airframes and in light that the UK Govn. Had declared them Wargraves we moved to other airframe’s in Sebago Lake.

Now let’s jump ahead to HARC involvement first off they would have never found them if one of their Reps. didn’t come and sit down and talk with me, I pointed them in the right direction. See if you don’t have the actual first hand reports from the three witnesses then you wouldn’t find these airframes. In my discussion with them I informed them that the UK Govn had declared them War Graves and that they are listed on the UN Wargrave’s listed and while they could search for them they would need permission from both the State of Maine and the Maine Aviation Historical Society(MAHS).

The MAHS had got the State of Maine to declare these crash sites as official Wargraves which meant that HARC need to come clean on why they were looking for these airframes. See folks I knew the reason all along and I told them if they really want to recover a Corsair without having the US Navy stepping in then I told them I could show them two crash site in the Kennebec River JT182 738th Squadron and JT162 1838th Squadron along with TBF-1c FN762 738 Squadron which Jim and I also found in Sebago Lake. They didn’t care to go search for these and went head first into these wrecks. Well the MAHS ask the State to halt the search after it came out that HARC was looking to recover the airframes.

As it has already been stated the State of Maine will not allow these airframe’s to be removed per the request of UK MOD.
Also a few other items I would like to clear up, First off Sebago Lake is still very much a navigational water way it has a few working locks that connect it to Long Lake and Little Sebago Lake and I have myself traveled from Long Lake to Sebago via these lock systems.

The question has either family next of kin been contact the answer to that is yes both families have been contact with-in the past 29 years about the wrecks site hence one reason the Commonwealth Wargrave Commission contact me after we found the site(S), it was my understand that the families wish that the remains be not disturbed. Now how much truth is to this I can’t say but why would someone form CWC tell me this if it hadn’t happen.

As for other crash’s in Sebago lake there are quite a few along with the TBF, there are the following JT101 732 Squadron, JT132 738 Squadron along with one other Corsair ID unknown what is know it was from the 732 Squadron. Along with these airframes there is a J2F-5 Duck sting near the TBF site.

In closing I would like to stated that I believe that these two Corsair should be left in place and a Memorial be placed at Sebago Lake State Park with their names along with the other FAA/RN personal that lost there life’s in Sebago Lakes.

This is mostly fiction, including the "find" by Jim, the role of MAHS, and the actual positions/wreckage distribution. The only "view" of thw wreckage in existance is limited to some sidescan sonar and ROV video. This would be mixed gas diving, not recreational SCUBA.

The issue of recovery is blocked by the legal fact that the state owns the land at the bottom of all great ponds and any artifacts over 50 years old are state property, protected.

The issue of remains recovery is mainly a cultural one. The culture in the UK is very different than ours when it comes to losses abroad....it is a lengthy study unto itself.

Other wrecks in the lake include an Avenger I, FN762, and Corsair I, JT132. The J4F-2 was 33954 and this was a minor mishap. It did not sink. There was also another Corsiar I often stated as being in the lake, but actually ditched in a shallow area and was recovered. A Wildcat IV wreck often discussed locally actually crashed in the woods near the lake.

The Kennebec River Corsair is in salt water in Merrymeeting Bay, not far from BIW. It was seen from the air in the late 1950s and early 1960s but not recently.

Pettef86a,

I am sorry. I did not mean to claim to be first to find the Corsairs. "My first trip to Sebago Lake to look for these was in 1988". I should have worded the first sentence more clearly. I was fortunate enough to have spoken with eye witnesses before they passed which was a huge help.

My understanding of the third Corsair in Sebago Lake was a belly landing near the shore just North of Fryes Island. I believe I have seen a photo of the Corsair laying there on the ICE with military personnel present to remove.

Pirate Lex
http://www.BrewsterCorsair.com

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An ego is no match for gravity.

Here's a link to a site with pictures of the one that belly landed on the beach.

http://f4ucorsair.tripod.com/photo8-2.html

I found a website on Aviation Archaeology in Maine that I found interesting.

http://www.mewreckchasers.com/

There's an extensive list of military aircraft accidents known to have occurred in Maine, and there were a lot of Corsairs on there.

http://www.mewreckchasers.com/listnote.html

Yeah, I find that web site interesting too....lmao

You've got a very cool website there - you should put a link in your signature. I just kind of stumbled across it while searching for more information on this topic, and wasn't aware of your connection to it.

I just ordered a copy of the "Britain at War" issue with the article on the Corsairs, and I'm looking forward to seeing some more pictures of them. If you've got anything more you're willing to share about these wrecks, I'd love to see it. Before this topic came up I had no idea the Royal Navy trained Corsair pilots in the US during the war. I'm kind of a Corsair nut, so it's always neat to learn something new about them. I was a little surprised at the number of Corsairs that were involved in accidents on that list. I wonder how that compares to other types of fighters of the period, and if the British pilots had a harder time adapting to the Corsair for some reason.

As author of the piece in "Britain at War" I am pleased to see that this has generated a great deal of interest and debate, as well as some interesting information and comment.

What I would add is that these sites are not "officially" recognised as war graves as far as I know. Perhaps, just nominally, they have been called such although I do not believe there has been any formal classification of the sites as war graves - either by the British or US authorities. Indeed, I do not know under what authority such a classification of these sites (outside of UK Sovereign territory) might be made. I am not convinced, either, that the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has in any way shape or form had any involvement in these two cases since it would be outside their remit. The CWGC only become involved once a body is recovered, and they do not involve themselves in tracing/contacting next of kin. That would be down to the Ministry of Defence once a body is found. In fact, I am not entirely convinced, either, that the MOD has contacted the relatives of these two men. I could be wrong, although I may know a little more quite soon as I believe I am quite close to making contact with the family of Sub Lt Knott. We shall see!

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