Warbird Information Exchange

If you go to the Flypast forum, you can find an extensive thread about this. There is someone who is intimately involved in this project, and I am merely repeating what he has written. I believe the basic premise is that the aircraft, because they are submerged, are treated more like ships in the eyes of the British MOD and therefore are considered "war graves" not to be disturbed. If I'm not mistaken, if the bodies were on dry land, they would be considered differently by the MOD and therefore more likely to be recovered.

I think in the very least, every soldier deserves to be recovered and returned home, if for any other reason, than to bring closure for family members.

I read a portion of the court ruling. The war graves matter did not get addressed as salvage was stopped by the State of Maine's motion. It was determined that Admiralty law does not apply, thus the State owns the planes.

If, for any reason, this ruling is reversed; then the war graves matter will be the next challange.

Regards,

Art S.

bump

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Shop the Airplane Bunker At
www.warbirdbunker.com

Interesting photo. It is actually a vidcap and rotated 90 degrees.

Deep cold fresh water has remarkable abilities to preserve things.

Has anyone read this article? Are these A/C in 1 piece or broken up? The tail and cockpit pictures look phenomenal...even better than the aircraft from Lake Michigan! It would be a crime to let these planes continue to sit...even if they were involved in fatal accidents. I have respect for the deceased pilots, but seriously, how many real -1 Corsairs are out there? And what better way to pay respect to those aviators than to restore their aircraft (either static or airworthy)??? Just my 2 cents...

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I'm looking for that buried Corsair(s) that I can dig up, pressure wash, and fly!

I summered on Sebago Lake for many years as a child and college age adult.
The lake is 15 by 8 miles and 350 feet deep in the deepest part with very little silt . It's cold down there and the only place I know of in the U.S. that you can fish for land-locked salmon.
If I had only known then...
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

What kind of bait would you have used to catch a Corsair?

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S.

A "Zero" on a big hook!
They can't resist going after them!
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

The bird in the pics is standing on its nose minus wings....looks like a lamp standing on the lake bottom. The second broke up due to the angle of impact and is scattered across the bottom.

BTW, these are not the only WWII aircraft wrecks in Sebego Lake.

I don't mean to sound offensive by asking this, but how is leaving someone in an aircraft or ship considered respectful? If it was my family member, I'd want them to be recovered and given a proper burial. I'd rather see my family member's aircraft raised and placed in a static museum than to continue to sit at the bottom of a lake or ocean. The only thing I would say is that if it was a war grave, then the aircraft should remain static so that the last person to fly it was indeed the person who lost their life in it. Their markings should also always be on the airframe. This is a much more fitting way to pay tribute than to leave them behind.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

I think the mindset started with ships and boats (subs). The fact that recover of a ship was generally such a huge project that it was not deemed feasibly. I think somehow (most likely a cheap cop out by politicians not willing to do the right thing) carried that idea over to aircraft. Aircraft belong in the air (by design) not in the water. I 100% feel that only sailors in ships should be left with the ship and crew. NOW the exception, if the ship is in shallow water and not able to be protected, the crew should be removed and buried. That way the remains will not disrespected by looters. Proper recoveries are not grave robbers or looters.

Plus sailors are a special bread that feels that calling of the sea long after leaving it, it a special brand of misery that we somehow are still drawn to. The idea of being buried at sea does have an appeal to me. I can't speak for all sailors but I know there are those who feel the same way as I do.

I hope those aircraft are recovered, the crew returned home and buried with honors! The aircraft, well I'd love to see at least one return to the air. One restored and displayed in honor of the crews would also be great.

Tim

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www.tailhookstudio.com

What else is down there? Any more pictures? Any more Corsairs?

I didn't see the actual docket posted, my Uncle found it and passed it along to me, and now I'm passing it along.

There is some legal mumbo-jumbo lawyer talk in there, and I picked out a few things. Enjoy!

http://www.med.uscourts.gov/opinions/Si ... VOIGHT.pdf

http://www.med.uscourts.gov/opinions/Singal/2003/GZS_11242003_2-03cv150_HISTORIC_AIRCRAFT_V_VOIGHT.pdf

I wasn't sure whether to post this or not, but thought it might be of interest, as there are some interesting details. I was sent an e-mail by someone who was involved in the hunt for these corsairs early on, and this is what he had to say...

Cheers,
Richard

Hi All,

So time to clear up some stuff on these two aircraft.

First these aircraft were first discovered by me and the late Jim Chichetto in the fall of 1990. That winter I contacted the MOD about doing a recovery, I received a letter back from White Hall explaining that these aircraft were still owned by the UK and that it was their wish that these airframes be left in place.
Later in 1991 I received a phone call from the Commonwealth Wargrave’s headquarters in Ottawa Canada, the nature of this call was to confirm to me that these two crash sites have been declared Wargraves by the RN.

So let discuss the wrecks themselves, the photo in the article is very misleading JT160 is not sitting upright but inverted at about a 50 degree angle the right wing is located about 100 yards North of the wreckage and the depth is not 325 as stated in the story but it actually sits at 329.4 feet and the airframe is sitting on what is known as Frye Leap Ridge. As for JT132 it is located about 1.3 miles away from JT160 and is at a depth of 370 feet and also sits on Frye Leap. JT132 broke its back on impact do to the fact it went inverted into the water this was due to the fact that SubLt. Gill flew thru the Water Spout that SubLt. Knox’s plane put up when he hit the water. JT132 sits upside down with the left wing hanging off the ridge and it is missing the right elevator.

Now both of these aircraft are sitting on Frye Leap Ridge both of them are on the edge of a drop off that goes down to 400+feet of water. So any idea of trying to recover either of these aircraft has to take this into consideration which Jim and I did. We came up with the conclusion that it wouldn’t be cost effective to try to recover these two airframes and in light that the UK Govn. Had declared them Wargraves we moved to other airframe’s in Sebago Lake.

Now let’s jump ahead to HARC involvement first off they would have never found them if one of their Reps. didn’t come and sit down and talk with me, I pointed them in the right direction. See if you don’t have the actual first hand reports from the three witnesses then you wouldn’t find these airframes. In my discussion with them I informed them that the UK Govn had declared them War Graves and that they are listed on the UN Wargrave’s listed and while they could search for them they would need permission from both the State of Maine and the Maine Aviation Historical Society(MAHS).

The MAHS had got the State of Maine to declare these crash sites as official Wargraves which meant that HARC need to come clean on why they were looking for these airframes. See folks I knew the reason all along and I told them if they really want to recover a Corsair without having the US Navy stepping in then I told them I could show them two crash site in the Kennebec River JT182 738th Squadron and JT162 1838th Squadron along with TBF-1c FN762 738 Squadron which Jim and I also found in Sebago Lake. They didn’t care to go search for these and went head first into these wrecks. Well the MAHS ask the State to halt the search after it came out that HARC was looking to recover the airframes.

As it has already been stated the State of Maine will not allow these airframe’s to be removed per the request of UK MOD.
Also a few other items I would like to clear up, First off Sebago Lake is still very much a navigational water way it has a few working locks that connect it to Long Lake and Little Sebago Lake and I have myself traveled from Long Lake to Sebago via these lock systems.

The question has either family next of kin been contact the answer to that is yes both families have been contact with-in the past 29 years about the wrecks site hence one reason the Commonwealth Wargrave Commission contact me after we found the site(S), it was my understand that the families wish that the remains be not disturbed. Now how much truth is to this I can’t say but why would someone form CWC tell me this if it hadn’t happen.

As for other crash’s in Sebago lake there are quite a few along with the TBF, there are the following JT101 732 Squadron, JT132 738 Squadron along with one other Corsair ID unknown what is know it was from the 732 Squadron. Along with these airframes there is a J2F-5 Duck sting near the TBF site.

In closing I would like to stated that I believe that these two Corsair should be left in place and a Memorial be placed at Sebago Lake State Park with their names along with the other FAA/RN personal that lost there life’s in Sebago Lakes.

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Richard Mallory Allnutt - Photography - http://www.rmallnutt.com

RMAllnut, thank Col. Rohr for posting that info on the Corsairs.