Urbana B-17 "Champagne Lady" Update 25 June 2010

seabee1526 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:18 pm **Posts:** 459

I understand that you will be having a display at this years Thunder, can't wait to see your Champagne Lady display. I understand that 8th Air Force reunion will be at Thunder as well.

Warbirdjohn · **Joined:** Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:21 am **Posts:** 21

seabee1526 wrote:

I understand that you will be having a display at this years Thunder, can't wait to see your Champagne Lady display. I understand that 8th Air Force reunion will be at Thunder as well.

Any idea on what we might see at the show?

51fixer · **Posted:** Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:08 pm

warbird1 wrote:

51fixer wrote:

Corrugated skin is a 1930s method.
P-38 has a similar construction in center wing and outer wing.
Center wing actually has a inner skin, corrugation and then outer skin between the main spar and the rear spar.
Rich

I didn't know that. Thanks for that info, Rich. Anyone have pix of the P-38 setup?

Inside of a P-38 wing after removing external skins.

Close up of casting where fuel cell attaches and fueling cap is located. Ring of holes is the inner skin.
Casting and stamped steel ring for the fuel cap is removed.

After paint prep the casting and ring reinstalled. None of this is accessible with the skins on.
Eye looking up is a young Mark Foster. I believe he is now the President of the William Lyons Air Museum. He was also involved in management at POF for many years and went on to fly the museums P-51, F4U and others. This was when he was in High School and worked afternoons for Steve Hinton.

Rich

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11319

That was taken a few months before you hung the gear, right?

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:41 pm

bdk wrote:

That was taken a few months before you hung the gear, right?

Bandon,
Your really simplifying this.
1st part from Steve was paint it silver. Then hang it.
Wonder if I took a photo of that.
Rich

warbird1 · **Joined:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:25 pm **Posts:** 2760

Thanks for the pictures of the P-38, 51fixer, I appreciate it! Regarding those corrugated skin sections. How hard are they to reproduce? I assume there aren't too many around, are there? Would it be a correct assumption, that those corrugated skins would have to be outsourced for replication? I'm assuming that they would be incredibly difficult to make for most warbird restoration shops, correct?

51fixer · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:30 am

warbird1 wrote:

Thanks for the pictures of the P-38, 51fixer, I appreciate it! Regarding those corrugated skin sections. How hard are they to reproduce? I assume there aren't too many around, are there? Would it be a correct assumption, that those corrugated skins would have to be outsourced for replication? I'm assuming that they would be incredibly difficult to make for most warbird restoration shops, correct?

Those are the original. We only had to change the external skin.
I wonder how they were able to buck the rivets on these wings.
Attaching one skin to the corrugated skin is no big deal but then the 2nd skin then presents a difficult task.
How do you buck a standard AN 426/470AD rivet down a small tunnel that is 10 feet long or so?
I used 500 plus CherryMax rivets on each side back on this wing.
Rich

Holedigger · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:58 am

She'll look something like this when done?

aerovin · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:17 pm

Not meant as a criticism, but serial number on the artwork is off by two.

Holedigger · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:51 pm

Whoops! That's what I get for working too late at night

Second Air Force · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:55 pm

51fixer wrote:

warbird1 wrote:

I wonder how they were able to buck the rivets on these wings.
Attaching one skin to the corrugated skin is no big deal but then the 2nd skin then presents a difficult task.
How do you buck a standard AN 426/470AD rivet down a small tunnel that is 10 feet long or so?

Rich

I've pondered that question too. The spar truss tubes on the B-17 are full of rivets that had to be shot that way also. From what little I can gather, there were appropriately sized bucking "rods", for lack of a better word, that were sent up the tunnels and the rivets were then shot. I'd love to hear from someone who actually assembled these corrugated structures so we could learn their secrets.

Scott

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11319

I'm guessing they used two special wedge blocks on the end of some steel rods.

If I recall correctly Rich, I found that gear laying around my hangas and noticed a Lockheed part number. I brought it to you and you said, "Hey! That's a gear we need!" I think it was for the trim system, no?

I remember all those Cherry-Max rivets. The top of the wing was like a file with all those stems and locking collars sticking up.

Second Air Force · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:05 pm

bdk wrote:

I'm guessing they used two special wedge blocks on the end of some steel rods.

Yup, that's kind of how I suspect it was done also.

51fixer · **Posted:** Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:55 pm

bdk wrote:

I'm guessing they used two special wedge blocks on the end of some steel rods.

If I recall correctly Rich, I found that gear laying around my hangas and noticed a Lockheed part number. I brought it to you and you said, "Hey! That's a gear we need!" I think it was for the trim system, no?

I remember all those Cherry-Max rivets. The top of the wing was like a file with all those stems and locking collars sticking up.

The infamous gear was from the P-38 wreck recovered out in the Santa Barbara area IIRC. It was the drive gear from the flap transmission and was burned from what ever small fire developed from the crash.
For those wondering what this story is about- When restoring the P-38 that went to Stephen Grey I was involved in rebuilding the nose structure where the Nose Gear trunion pivots mounted. This area had been damaged heavily from what looked like having the gear literally yanked out of its mounts by towing loads. Also involved was a nose gear that had been overhauled by someone else but after mocking up the gear in place it wouldn't center properly. I didn't know if I had rebuilt something wrong but finally found that there was some rust or something in the upper chamber of the strut that hadn't been flushed out. This got in the centering cam and prevented the strut from properly centering. All this happen while the boss, Steve Hinton went out of town. His parting instructions where to paint the gear silver and have it hung by the time he returned. I was close but knew I couldn't finish up before Steve got back. I took this flap drive gear that was kicking around and spray bombed it silver and then hung it under the nose. I don't think Steve saw the humor in it initially.
In addition to the 500+ Cherry's there were 500+ dimpled rivet holes as well.
When I get a chance I'll scan and post a couple more pics.
Rich

Shay · **Posted:** Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:52 am

Not much of an update but back with more picture of the ongoings at Grimes. Instead of flooding the thread with pictures. Feel free to stroll through the new pictures and ask questions. I might not have the answers but someone will.

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f321/ChimChim3/Champagne%20Lady%2012%20DEC%2009/?start=all

I may have a few more pics to add to this album as I weed through my SD card.

Trivia question: What do a B-17 Flying Fortress and a 1937 Ford have in common? (something I learned Yesterday)

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

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Urbana B-17 "Champagne Lady" Update 25 June 2010

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