Warbird Information Exchange

Cleanable filters I referred to above are made by Challenger Aviation Products under a PMA.
CP48109C
Info avail at http://challengeraviation.com/newproducts.html.
Rich

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

Just to steer the thread back to the oil subject...............

I agree will Bill's comments:
I have 2 paper filters that replace the cuno; the paper filter brackets were obtained from Stallion 51. These do a superb job compared to the cuno. I still retain the 2 large screen sump filters. All are checked at every oil change. Oil change target is at 25 hours, not so much for debris removal but oil replacement as the oil can build up acids & bad chemistry. Due to a busy flight schedule, I have gone to 45 hours (gasp!) but fortunately the 'SOAP' has come back fine. An oil analysis is done at each oil change. (Funny story- I misread a log book once and did an oil change at 15 hours......that oil analysis was about the same numbers as the one at 45 hours......go figure!) Motor is running great so far - knock on wood, cross your fingers, watch for black cats, don't step on a crack, etc. etc.
Just my FYI,
VL

Very interesting post Mr Greenwood ( not Bill since I have never met you and since you own and fly a Spitfire will be respectful ). Its fascinating for me (as a plane nut and engineer) to read about maintaining something like a Spitfire. More please and to anyone else with a maintenance story to relate!!

On SUSU, we change the oil about every 25 hours since that is about what it flies per year. We also do samples every time. I compare them with the previous years samples for trends. So far nothing out of whack but if there is, it's time to make some phone calls. We also have the screens, the Hovey filters and the Hinz filter right next to the APU attach and they all get cleaned or cut and replaced every time. I see where Bill is using the multiviscosity oils. Anyone using just Aeroshell 120. Cold weather is rarely an issue in Arizona and I've timed the preoiler while watching oil flow to the cams and its about 45 seconds on a cold morning so we always preoil for 60 to 75 seconds. That seems to get everything pretty wet on the top end.

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The more I learn about aircraft, the more I realize I still have to learn.

Yup, but we're in SoCal. That multigrade stuff seems to want to be outside the engines instead of inside...well, at least on radials, but we get them pretty much oil tight with aeroshell 120.. I think about a tablespoon of oil a month on the floor from an 1820 counts as "oil tight" Not quite there with the 2800's tho, but we're close.

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

I switched to Aeroshell 120 also; less seepage/leakage with this oil.
The motor gets about 120 to 140 hours per 6 months in the show/summer season. Thus the 'thicker' (non-multigrade) oil is not a factor.
I am considering that Hinz filter, also. Probably a good idea. Was the false red light problem solved?
VL

We've noticed the same lack of floor oil with the 120. No problems with getting the cams wet with the preoil and presseure comes up immediately on startup. The Hinz filter works really well but it is messy to clean. Don't try to do it unless all the oil possible is drained. The warning light issue was kind of funny actually. The pilot had a red light on the Hinz sensor so I pulled it to check for contamination. The sensor is on the bottm of the filter and with the plane full of oil, I looked like the little Dutch boy trying to plug the dyke with his finger. I lost about a quart on the floor while determining that there was no metal on the sensor. I replaced it quickly and had the pilot turn on the batteries again and he still got a red light. I told him to check the warning light and wooda thunk, it was in the press to test mode. Lesson learned? Always check the easiest solution first.

_________________
The more I learn about aircraft, the more I realize I still have to learn.

Chris, as for the temp in Phoenix, of course in the summer it is hot enough to fry your brain, I've never been anywhere else that 9pm can have 105 degree temps. However it is not always warm there. One of the coldest flights I have ever had and for sure the coldest in the Spitfire (cockpit heat is for wimps) was when we picked up the planes at Mesa and flew up to North Las Vegas, for the show at Nellis, perhaps 12 years ago, (Steve Jr. was there in the back of the POF P-47 and I think he was about 8.) I had left my Spitfire at Mesa after another show, thanks to the hospitality of the CAF chapter there. I came back, not sure of the date, sometime in the fall and it was near freezing with strong wind. About 4 of us took off to Vegas, and by the time I got there, about 1 hour flight, I was shivering so hard I could barley be understood on the radio. The wind was about 33knots, fortunately down the runway, but after landing ok, I could not turn 90 degrees to taxi in. I finally gave up trying when I started to go off into the grass, and I shut down and let a bunch of guys come out and hand push me in. The B-17 came in and had to use high power on two engines and idle on the other side to taxi in. I went into the FBO, ( great old Spanish style terminal) and took two hours to overcome being cold soaked. That a m you either needed preheat or multigrade or both!

As for the multigrade leaking more, that is probably the case. However if conditions call for it over single grade, I am much more concerned about adequate lubrication inside the engine than drips to wipe up on the floor. You can hire floor wipers a lot cheaper than Mr. Hovey or Roush or Nixon! Here in Aspen, even in summer you might get a nighttime down in the 50s and of course in spring and fall you can have a cold front and get a night in the 40s. Sure is great in the daytime though, as I write this it is almost Dec. and will be up in the 40s today. There is a women,s world cup ski race here which I better go watch.

Chris, one other thing, when you say oil pressure comes up quick, yes even a cold engine with thick oil will do that right away, but it does not mean there is oil going to the top end or all over the engine yet. I have been told that mechs have timed a Merlin pre oil, from zero, like after an oil change, sitting there with cam covers off and it can take as long as 2 minutes to get full oil flow. I have not verifyed this, but I preoil 2 min and that is with warm oil from the heated oil tank.

When you guys say 120 I assume you mean 120 w or AD, not mineral.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Avenger, thanks for the respect, but I am just Bill, not Mr. I have been called a lot worse on WIX for what I believe. I don't think anyone earns respect by what they own, the best I could take credit for is good taste in airplanes. Hey, I even know some nice guys who even own T-28s or diesel burners. I pray for them.
Thanks, Bill

PS, I am told to call all ladies Miss, not Mam , no matter their age since it makes them feel younger. Kind of true for me re, Mr., as middle age seems to be passing faster than I intended.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

You're only as old as the women you feel

_________________
Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

Good points Bill. Each time we've done the annual and pulled the cam covers, we check the operation of the preoiler. I've waited until the oil crept all the way up to the front of the cams. That alone takes about another 30 seconds after it initially appears on the rear lobes but from start to finish it's been pretty consistent at 45 seconds. I know not everyone has the same preoiler volume or pressure so that may cause some variations but I figure letting it run another thirty to forty seconds should get it pretty wet. You're also right about it getting a little cold in Phoenix at times but fortunately SUSUs owner is pretty much a fair weather pilot. 70deg and CAVU. With regard to the oil issue, Ive been told never to mix the Phillips multiviscosity and Aeroshell 120. Thats another reason we use the Aeroshell since we use it in the T-6 and Staggerwing also. Is there serious issues with adding one or the other when the tank needs to be topped off or am I paranoid?

_________________
The more I learn about aircraft, the more I realize I still have to learn.

They are both petroleum base.

What terrible thing do you think would happen to the engine?

Here is the Shackleton oil filter-

Easy to open and get to the screen element. Pull a pip pin, rotate lower housing and you have access to the element.

Close up of the elements.


Stacked screen assy of a Packard Merlin Cuno-



Rich

_________________
Rich Palmer

Remember an Injured Youth
benstear.org
#64- Stay Strong and Keep the Faith

BOOM BOOM, ROUND ROUND, PROPELLER GO

Don't Be A Dilbert!

Chris, re the compatibility of different brands, types, or weights of oil. I have listened to a number of talks of men from Shell or Phillips and I have also personally written and talked with the Texaco reps about both their antifreeze ( Saturn) and oil. All of these guys, without exception say that all the oils are compatibile and can be mixed safely. This is common sense, and they say in fact that it is an FAA/industry legal requirement that they be able to do this.

I have also talked to them about multigrade vs. single grade and they say lab tests show that the multigrade is better all around, that it is not only a better 15 or 20 w when cold, but also a better 50 or 60 w when hot. Note they say LAB tests, as I said nobody has a dozen Merlins to run on a test stand to failure, then tear down to analyze and improve like Rolls did, back when it was the fate of a country and not just our hobby at stake.

Does anybody have this type of info on Allisons?

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Yeah, I'm a little late on this, but I think you'll find that you're mis-reading the quote from Bill. I've bolded the important word.



He's recognizing that RR is still in business, just not in the business of making piston engines.

Anyway, great info from all. Interesting reading how it's done on an inline versus the radials.