Lake Michigan F6F recovery and restoration thread

[Matt Gunsch]

Exciting news indeed. It will be interesting to see where the Hellcat ends up being displayed.

I heard it was going to replace the Hellcat at Andrews AFB..........................

[Pat M]

"These planes tell the relatively unknown story of the Great Lakes region's role in training pilots during WWII," stated Michigan State Historic Preservation Officer Brian Conway. "Our general preference is to preserve the plane in place on the lake bottom as part of that story."

Ahhh yes, so the zebra mussels can bring their families out to discuss and enjoy the significance of these historic artifacts.

[mustangdriver]

Exciting news indeed. It will be interesting to see where the Hellcat ends up being displayed.

I heard it was going to replace the Hellcat at Andrews AFB..........................

There was a thread about this aircraft. Isn't it basically a shell with not much more there. I thought I read that it wasn't all stock hellcat parts, but parts just made to look like it. At any rate we need to be supportive of the new change that everyone has been wanting here. The NMNA is raising the aircraft for restoration and display. That is a huge step.

[F3A-1]

I applaud the recoveries that have taken place since the new direction taken at the former NHC and now "kinder & gentler" HHC. I commend the new director. I hope he will continue to change the policies to conform with public opinion that the Navy (as documents I and others have) did in fact abandon the lost aircraft from WWII. His predecessors at the NHC condemned them to certain destruction by the natural elements. The old NHC had acted in the best interest of a bureaucracy and not as public servants. The old NHC enacted policies that increased the cost of recoveries to the point that no one could afford to salvage any wrecks. In a conversation with a former US Senator the Navy told him that it would have cost them $500,000 to $700,000 to recover the Brewster Corsair. I did it for much less. The requirements are probably still in place and most of the planes cannot be recovered at such extreme cost.

We, as US citizens are the task masters. We must continue to hold government responsible to the wishes and direction "we" choose, not the other way around. To continue to claim ownership with no responsibility to maintain or dispose of such property is not logical stewardship of aircraft the Navy claims to still own. Naval Aviation history will continue to fade away at an exponential rate due to Zebra mussels and corrosion now present in all abandoned wrecks. I know the new director of the HHC will not be able to change things quickly, but the aircraft cannot wait for long.

Regards,
Lex Cralley
http://www.BrewsterCorsair.com

[tulsaboy]

Owen-

A quick question. I (and I'm sure most everyone) is thrilled that things are changing for the better at NHC. The sudden burst of recoveries is exciting. As you pointed out, the problem in the current environment is finding folks with the bucks to recover. It seems to me that if the goal is recovery and preservation, that goal could be accomplished by opening up the recoveries to those with the bucks and allowing those folks to establish ownership for restoration and placement in their choice of museum, or restoration to flight. Do you think that the NHC is adamantly opposed to such a situation? I'm thinking (for lack of a better person) that a Paul Allen, with his extreme desire for historically significant aircraft, combat veterans etc. would be excited about the possibility to recover aircraft like the Hellcat that is being recovered on Monday and the opportunity to restore it to flight. Those types of folks have the money, willpower and horsepower to get these recoveries done. Wouldn't the NHC benefit from such an arrangement if they were allowed to document the recovery, and to completely document the aircraft during its restoration to preserve any relevant historic information.

Just a thought.

kevin

[Steve Nelson]

"These planes tell the relatively unknown story of the Great Lakes region's role in training pilots during WWII," stated Michigan State Historic Preservation Officer Brian Conway. "Our general preference is to preserve the plane in place on the lake bottom as part of that story."

Unfortunately, it sounds like he's using the thinking traditionally applied to shipwrecks, which generally aren't recoverable. The only time I believe a submerged aircraft should remain in situ is when the remains of the crew are still on board..then it becomes a war grave. As far as "preserving the story," I simply don't understand that..allowing a zebra mussell encrusted wreck to slowly corrode to dust on the bottom of the lake is hardly preservation.

I'm thrilled to see the Hellcat coming up. Now if we can just get one of the TBDs before they're too far gone to save!

SN

[RickH]

I'm with Lex, I applaud the recovery, but you guys are missing something here.

There is nothing groundbreaking as it regards this recovery. It's still the NMNA doing the recovery, not Lex or Joe Blow. The NHC was never stopping the NMNA from recovering aircraft out of the Lake, the NHC AND the NMNA have been stopping YOU from recovering those aircraft. The aircraft will be recovered and will be owned by the NMNA and will be restored for static display, just like most of the Wildcats and all of the SBDs that were recovered previously.

I want to see a Navy aircraft recovered by a permitted private party, that's when we'll know that real change has become a reality.

[Owen Miller]

Rick,
I most emphatically disagree with you. Without question. the old NHC
prevented NNAM from recovering Lake Michigan aircraft or and other sub-
merged wrecks. Robert Neyland, Wendy Coble, and another woman whose
name escapes me held sway over recoveries. They were the archaeoligical
branch of NHC and they believed in "preserving them in place for future
generations". No amout of logical explanation could sway them and they
had the power.

For years warbirders on this board criticized NNAM for stopping others
from recovering wrecks, leaving the remaining ones on the bottom, and
"hoarding all those SBDs and F4Fs in Pensacola". Over the last several
years most of those "hoarded" planes are distributed around the country
for people to see. Now, in less that a year, three new birds have been
brought up: one for the D-Day Museum and two for the Pacific War Mus-
eum in Hawaii.

Since DeLoach took over he has addressed two out of three warbirder's
concerns. I think it's time to extend the olive branch and meet the man
halfway. I can't speak for the navy, but I would imagine if someone like
Paul Allen or someone of similar means and interest stepped forward the
navy would be happy to talk.

There are guys like Jack and Andy Taylor of Enterprise Rent-A-Car,
an LA oil man who financed the eBay C-47 purchase and restoration for
the D-Day Museum AND the recent SBD recovery, and a certain bank CEO
that have stepped up. Surely there are others.

What DeLoach and his team have done in a short amount of time is
HUGE!

Last edited by Owen Miller on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Jack Cook]

These planes tell the relatively unknown story of the Great Lakes region's role in training pilots during WWII," stated Michigan State Historic Preservation Officer Brian Conway. "Our general preference is to preserve the plane in place on the lake bottom as part of that story."

Well this is up up for the most moronic statement of the year.
What exactly does a "historic preservation" officer do if he just wants to let thing rot???

[RickH]

the old NHC
prevented NNAM from recovering Lake Michigan aircraft or and other sub-
merged wrecks. Robert Neyland, Wendy Coble, and another woman whose
name escapes me held sway over recoveries.

Owen, I don't disagree at all, you are completely right. They needed to go.

I'm not disagreeing with your observation regarding comments by people on WIX about the NMNA "hoarding " aircraft. Those aircraft were recovered and loaned to other museums.

What I disagree with is the characterization of this recent lift being "groundbreaking ".

Now, in less that a year, three new birds have been
brought up: one for the D-Day Museum and two for the Pacific War Mus-
eum in Hawaii.

With that comment you prove my point . Yes, the aircraft were recovered but they are owned by NMNA and are nothing more than the standard long term loan through NMNA that we are all familiar with.

These are not civilian recoveries to be restored for flying purposes. That would be a demonstration of real change. I believe one permit has been granted to a nongovernmental entity to recover an aircraft. When that aircraft sees the light of day, unencumbered by claims of Navy ownership, then we'll see real change. But, at least a process is now in place.

[Owen Miller]

Tulsaboy,

Certainly I can't speak for the navy, but if it were I,
liability would be a huge concern. We all remember the
Chacks suit against Grumman. And there was a case some
years ago involving a failed nose gear during taxi, a
severed leg, and a lawsuit. The court ruled that the
government failed to properly adequately inspect the
plane 30 years before the transfer.

I think we'd all agree we live in a litigious society.
When I was in the 7th grade a Navy T-2 from Pensacola
crashed in a vegetable garden about 150 yards from my
school. No one was hurt, there were no suits, every-
one just thanked God. What do you think would happen
today? Can you imagine if a privately owned/operated
Wildcat or Dauntless wound up in a schoolyard?

Now some may say that is a remote possibility, but is it?
I like seeing them fly as much as the next guy. I've
rode on both Collings bombers, and it was the experience
of a lifetime. I'm just saying' there are at least
two sides to every issue. If I was the navy or if I were
Grumman, or Boeing who absorbed Douglas, I may not have
your level of enthusiasm.

Yes, I know the USAF does things differently. Certainly
that is their prerogative and the fact that the USAF does
not claim to "own" stricken war birds like the Navy
does.


Owen

[mustangdriver]

The NMUSAF found itself looking for a lawyer when a private owned warbird crashed and killed some people. There were people trying to still sue the NMUSAF over it, so I can understand the whole long term laon thing. All I care about is them getting raised and restored. If some can figure out a way to fly a few of the recoverd planes, sweet. if not, as long as they get restored even to static, it's better than the bottom of the ocean.

[warbird1]

Whether one thinks the changes in NHC are "groundbreaking" or not, we have to all agree that at least the airplanes are being recovered and restored. It may not be a perfect solution, but at least it is a step in the right direction. Private individuals may not be able to recover and restore Navy planes, but it may yet happen in the future. Drastic change does not happen overnight, but give it some time. Leadership, policies, and Navy goals will all be different depending on who is in charge at the moment. The fact that these aircraft which have previously been relegated to rot on the bottom of the lake slowly over time, are now at least being recovered, is a HUGE change in my book. The fact that there is a large probability that we all will be able to see the world's only surviving Devastator sometime in the next 5 or so years is an assumption that is not to be disregarded lightly. I still applaud the change in leadership and policies. We must take baby steps at first, and this is the first one. Maybe a few years down the road, we could see the policy change again. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

[warbird1]

Tulsaboy,

Certainly I can't speak for the navy, but if it were I,
liability would be a huge concern. We all remember the
Chacks suit against Grumman. And there was a case some
years ago involving a failed nose gear during taxi, a
severed leg, and a lawsuit. The court ruled that the
government failed to properly adequately inspect the
plane 30 years before the transfer.

I think we'd all agree we live in a litigious society.
When I was in the 7th grade a Navy T-2 from Pensacola
crashed in a vegetable garden about 150 yards from my
school. No one was hurt, there were no suits, every-
one just thanked God. What do you think would happen
today? Can you imagine if a privately owned/operated
Wildcat or Dauntless wound up in a schoolyard?

Now some may say that is a remote possibility, but is it?
I like seeing them fly as much as the next guy. I've
rode on both Collings bombers, and it was the experience
of a lifetime. I'm just saying' there are at least
two sides to every issue. If I was the navy or if I were
Grumman, or Boeing who absorbed Douglas, I may not have
your level of enthusiasm.

Yes, I know the USAF does things differently. Certainly
that is their prerogative and the fact that the USAF does
not claim to "own" stricken war birds like the Navy
does.


Owen

Wow, interesting Owen. I never knew that "liability" was such a huge concern for the Navy. I had always thought the reason that the NHC did not want private individuals recovering their aircraft was more of a "power and control" issue. That, plus the fact that the Navy seems to hate so-called "civilians" flying THEIR aircraft. Are you saying that liability is the number one concern of the Navy?

Also, as an aside, anything new in the Otay reservoir Helldiver planned recovery? Is it still a go? If so, when?

Thanks, Owen, I agree with everything you have said so far!

[Jack Cook]

Here's some VF-38 shots. Wish knew the BuNo of Oc's a/c.

LT Chenoweth after he scored VF-38's first kill over Rabaul. With him is p/c AMM2/C Pete Holm.

1 down and 8 more to go!

Oc and his division by his #5 "Ruth-less" at Segi Point, NG

Last edited by Jack Cook on Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.