Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:44 pm
Our local Wehrmach group at least has a bombed out building that they bring with them, so at least they aren't sitting out in the open when they get attacked by the US Army or strafed by Mustangs! It is rather odd when they go at each other across wide open, manicured grass fields. They might as well wear red, line up facing each other at 50 yards and commence firing! Oh, right, the Civil War Re-enactors still do that, just not wearing red unless they are from New Orleans!!
Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:00 pm
p51 wrote:Couldn't have said it better myself!I always laugh at the double standard of warbird folks who sneer at those of us who bring Jeeps and tents to an event, when in fact, they’re doing the exact same thing as us with airplanes, often not even on our level of authenticity.
The difference is that most of the warbird folks aren't dressed up like a bunch of little kids, pretending to be something they aren't, wearing uniforms, medals and rank that they certainly never earned. Being able to buy them and earning the right to wear them is two different things.
Maybe they aren't at yalls level of authenticity...but they also don't look like idiots.
Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:37 pm
Brad wrote:The difference is that most of the warbird folks aren't dressed up like a bunch of little kids, pretending to be something they aren't, wearing uniforms, medals and rank that they certainly never earned. Being able to buy them and earning the right to wear them is two different things.
Maybe they aren't at yalls level of authenticity...but they also don't look like idiots.
That is MY POINT EXACTLY!!!! LMAO!!!!
Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:42 pm
PinecastleAAF wrote:I always laugh at the double standard of warbird folks who sneer at those of us who bring Jeeps and tents to an event, when in fact, they’re doing the exact same thing as us with airplanes
My thoughts also. As if the aircraft could have operated without trucks and jeeps to haul bombs, fuel, parts, crews, etc.
We are not bashing the restoration and display of 'ground equipment'. I personally love tanks and jeeps as well as anyone else.
I think the point here is the shock and awe at the misguided aspirations of grown men dressing up in costumes and playing soldier!
Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:21 pm
Interesting discussion, and it's got me thinking, so here's some thoughts.
FWIW, I find advancing open formation across a lawn looks a bit odd, but no more than flying obsolete combat aircraft in circles near a crowd, if you think about it...
looks mighty like:
I think the point here is the shock and awe at the misguided aspirations of grown men getting into old airplanes and playing war-pilots!
Uh, how exactly is sitting in an ex-military aircraft with an ace's name under the cockpit and a row of kill markings (usually nothing to do with that particular aircraft and rarely that person) different? Or, if we are throwing stones at the glass houses, putting your own name under the canopy rail implying that 'you' served with that aircraft in that war - rather than the reality having the money and sweat to get to play with it?
It's also a good thing that some warbird pilots are getting dressed up in period or look-alike gear, as it makes the whole thing look better - thinking of the flying Happy Jack's Go Buggy pics. I can also think of other current warbird pilots wearing full air force uniforms to fly displays. Some are ex-air force in other wars, and may match ranks - but that sure don't bother about the rest - and they sure weren't in that other war (a couple of notable Vietnam vets flying are the exception for that 'rule').
But, according to your criteria...
In short it boils down to the kind of religious theological arguments that seem vitally important to those involved in one or other group, but are utterly absurd for both to anyone outside it.
Most people's hobbies and enthusiasms look pretty odd from the outside - and standing in one and chucking rocks at another is, IMHO, not clever.
FWIW, reenactors have brought a lot to the whole warbird game, and as has been said, there's perhaps good and bad ways of doing it.
It's not something I'd want to do (any more than I want to pilot warbirds) but there have been occasions where recreators have added a good deal to a display or understanding of the story behind the aircraft:
At Oshkosh this year - of course at the risk of stating the obvious, the gentleman adds a very important point to who the Tuskeegee airmen were. Something the restoration simply does not.
My biggest problem with it is to know how to spell 're-enactors' or 're-creators'!
On the other hand I can think of a well known magazine editor who flew his own German aerobatic trainer and delighted in getting dressed up in German gear and offering Nazi salutes to all and sundry before and after flying. That was in the 1970s, and times change. Of course no-one from Texas ever did that at a certain big show in the 1970s...
It's often a beef tht the re-enactors do it badly, too. As we all know, German soldiers always worse jackboots, were blonde, blue eyed and never fat and badly dressed. Meanwhile at a certain POW camp:
Isn't that Schultz?!
Just some stuff to think about.
Regards,
FWIW, I find advancing open formation across a lawn looks a bit odd, but no more than flying obsolete combat aircraft in circles near a crowd, if you think about it...
I think the point here is the shock and awe at the misguided aspirations of grown men dressing up in costumes and playing soldier!
looks mighty like:
I think the point here is the shock and awe at the misguided aspirations of grown men getting into old airplanes and playing war-pilots!
Brad wrote:The difference is that most of the warbird folks aren't dressed up like a bunch of little kids, pretending to be something they aren't, wearing uniforms, medals and rank that they certainly never earned. Being able to buy them and earning the right to wear them is two different things.
Uh, how exactly is sitting in an ex-military aircraft with an ace's name under the cockpit and a row of kill markings (usually nothing to do with that particular aircraft and rarely that person) different? Or, if we are throwing stones at the glass houses, putting your own name under the canopy rail implying that 'you' served with that aircraft in that war - rather than the reality having the money and sweat to get to play with it?
It's also a good thing that some warbird pilots are getting dressed up in period or look-alike gear, as it makes the whole thing look better - thinking of the flying Happy Jack's Go Buggy pics. I can also think of other current warbird pilots wearing full air force uniforms to fly displays. Some are ex-air force in other wars, and may match ranks - but that sure don't bother about the rest - and they sure weren't in that other war (a couple of notable Vietnam vets flying are the exception for that 'rule').
But, according to your criteria...
In short it boils down to the kind of religious theological arguments that seem vitally important to those involved in one or other group, but are utterly absurd for both to anyone outside it.
Most people's hobbies and enthusiasms look pretty odd from the outside - and standing in one and chucking rocks at another is, IMHO, not clever.
FWIW, reenactors have brought a lot to the whole warbird game, and as has been said, there's perhaps good and bad ways of doing it.
It's not something I'd want to do (any more than I want to pilot warbirds) but there have been occasions where recreators have added a good deal to a display or understanding of the story behind the aircraft:
At Oshkosh this year - of course at the risk of stating the obvious, the gentleman adds a very important point to who the Tuskeegee airmen were. Something the restoration simply does not.
My biggest problem with it is to know how to spell 're-enactors' or 're-creators'!
On the other hand I can think of a well known magazine editor who flew his own German aerobatic trainer and delighted in getting dressed up in German gear and offering Nazi salutes to all and sundry before and after flying. That was in the 1970s, and times change. Of course no-one from Texas ever did that at a certain big show in the 1970s...
It's often a beef tht the re-enactors do it badly, too. As we all know, German soldiers always worse jackboots, were blonde, blue eyed and never fat and badly dressed. Meanwhile at a certain POW camp:
Isn't that Schultz?!
Just some stuff to think about.
Regards,
???
Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:10 pm
All I see in that first photo is the decal 
I think it's OK if the intent is to honor, show respect and to educate.
I draw the line at the ribbons and medals though
I got mine the hard way 
To many other died earning theirs
I think it's OK if the intent is to honor, show respect and to educate.
I draw the line at the ribbons and medals though
I got mine the hard way To many other died earning theirs
Re: ???
Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:22 pm
Jack Cook wrote:All I see in that first photo is the decal
Where's the yawn emoticon?
For the general public, the pilot's colo(u)r would probably be something that might bring them up short. That's not evident in the aircraft itself.
Still we can also stay wrapped around the axle about a sticker instead. That's real respekful and edducatinshal. Oh...
I think it's OK if the intent is to honor, show respect and to educate.
Of course no-one ever flies warbirds just because it's 'fun'.
I draw the line at the ribbons and medals though
Broadly I'd agree. But it depends if the medals are being worn as part of an appropriate uniform representing someone in particular or a role where the absence of those medals would be obvious - campaign medals for instance.
Rather like representing the post-war built warbird as the ace's actual aircraft, rather than being paint-scheme deep - wearing medals and pretending to have earned them is a no-no.
Fact remains that most rocks a warbirder cares to heave at the reenactors can justifiably be sent straight back.
Regards,
Re: ???
Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:43 am
JDK wrote:I draw the line at the ribbons and medals though
Broadly I'd agree. But it depends if the medals are being worn as part of an appropriate uniform representing someone in particular or a role where the absence of those medals would be obvious - campaign medals for instance.
Jack,
I'll have to respectfully disagree on this one point - to some extent. If you're just talking about the guys playing war - I actually agree. It's distressing when you have to listen to stupid, silly arguments from nitwits about their "right" to command an outfit of reenactors because they bought more expensive metal symbols. On the other hand, if something specifically historical is being portrayed, like the scripted Iwo Jima reenactment I participated in for the 60th anniversary, I feel it's somewhat different - as long as it's not so much "playing" war, but like to public going to see a "live" movie in an educational context. Also, I have a uniform that I wear sometimes that was specifically given to me by a relative for Christmas a few years back. They inherited it from an unmarried uncle who served in the 12th Air Force in the Med. Theater. They knew I sometimes wore a more generic uniform (and a nice bomber jacket that they found for me
) with the aircraft and specifically intended that I would wear it sometimes at events in his honor, and as a tool for historical purposes. So, although it has a few ribbons on it, I don't feel I am trying to "wear something I haven't earned," I'm trying to do my part to keep the stories alive of the Air Force he served with. I would NEVER tell someone that I earned the ribbon, and if asked, usually tell them a bit more about my uncle's uncle, and describe what the ribbons meant. Think about it this way - if we donated it to a museum, it would probably end up stuck in a drawer somewhere or get eaten by the moths.
So, in the case of the "good" reenactor groups, I think it's not inappropriate, insofar as they are not intending to mis-represent the public, but use the uniforms in the right context for worthy purposes. On the other hand, if guys want to go play army on their own time, and at fairly high expense, I guess it's a free country. I just don't really care for the idea.
Ryan
Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:52 am
"Right, troops. It says here ~uh~ that about now we should be learning stuff. But if you want to be having fun, that's OK too. Now, on the command 'LEARN!', please flip to page 13."
Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:11 am
Actually, that's me doing a painful job of trying to read my VERY carefully scripted talk (I was gung-ho to give it, but scared to death!) in a brisk wind... to an audience that included some friends that I knew would grade me afterwards. It wasn't the best I'd ever done! I'm getting a little bit better and more comfortable with public speaking, but still get a bit terrified!
Ryan
Ryan
Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:28 am
I thought as much.
If their grading didn't involve standing you a cold one after, you need to hint heavier.
If you aren't a bit nervous, you're probably not going to give a good presentation.
It does get a bit easier as you get more experienced - and once you've got a few good screw ups under your belt and learned that the world's not ending and how to recover, it gets a lot easier. I know, I've made some humdinger errors in my time, but we are all still here!
If their grading didn't involve standing you a cold one after, you need to hint heavier.
RyanShort1 wrote:...but still get a bit terrified!
If you aren't a bit nervous, you're probably not going to give a good presentation.
It does get a bit easier as you get more experienced - and once you've got a few good screw ups under your belt and learned that the world's not ending and how to recover, it gets a lot easier. I know, I've made some humdinger errors in my time, but we are all still here!