Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:17 am
TriangleP brings up some excellent points. I personally have only been to one tour stop with the Overcast, and then only as a spectator. The point of having the plane out there touring IS to expose people to history. But, an airplane without it's story is just a hunk of metal ( though a B-17 is a quite attractive hunk of metal...).
Really, preserving these airplanes is about preserving the stories that went with them, and passing those stories on to the next generation while using the airplane to give some sort of context. After all, aren't we all just a bunch of people who get together to talk about neat stuff???
I will talk to our tour coordinator for the Overcast and see what kind of historical context we can provide to flight participants while she's out on the road. Thanks for bringing up these kinds of issues. If we want warbirds to maintain some sort of relevance going into the future, we have to do better to communicate to others what they represent. Again, any suggestions are helpful!
Nice mock-up, by the way! Look forward to the film.
Chris
Really, preserving these airplanes is about preserving the stories that went with them, and passing those stories on to the next generation while using the airplane to give some sort of context. After all, aren't we all just a bunch of people who get together to talk about neat stuff???
I will talk to our tour coordinator for the Overcast and see what kind of historical context we can provide to flight participants while she's out on the road. Thanks for bringing up these kinds of issues. If we want warbirds to maintain some sort of relevance going into the future, we have to do better to communicate to others what they represent. Again, any suggestions are helpful!
Nice mock-up, by the way! Look forward to the film.
Chris
Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:08 am
cott wrote:TriangleP brings up some excellent points.
Absolutely - some stuff that alone would make this thread worthwhile.
Others input is great also here - particularly neat to see the Fortress Fan replica - is that 'supersize' for modern people?
cott wrote:I will talk to our tour coordinator for the Overcast and see what kind of historical context we can provide to flight participants while she's out on the road. Thanks for bringing up these kinds of issues. If we want warbirds to maintain some sort of relevance going into the future, we have to do better to communicate to others what they represent.
That's a neat reaction. A couple of off the cuff suggestions are display boards with period 'in action' photos and (brief) data on the crew jobs and positions, for the ground while waiting to board. My father taught (in the UK) a history module on the Memphis Belle films and I arranged for a piece of B-17 style skinning, plus a .50 cal round and a couple of German cannon shells so the students could see what the fighting and defence was done with.
Stuff to handle like that is neat, and while another awkward thing, we aren't doing this for an easy life, are we?
Similar boards on "Rosie's" job, perhaps some dress up kit - repro helmets, or armour, Mae Wests etc would be neat too.
I presume handouts with the history of the aircraft and organisation come with the ticket. If not that's a low cost (and cost coverable with advertising) item to add.
Just some thoughts, what else can be floated?
Regards,
Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:15 am
I for one don't believe that a Fortress needs to be decked out with all of the original equipment to preserve the historical context of their operation to the public either touring the aircraft or participating in a flight experience.
I would have to agree with James that if the main goal is to re-live the terrorizing sacrifices that these aircrews endured during WWII then get everyone dressed up in the full kit including electric heat suits that will occasionally short out and burn you, make sure there are at least a few other large aircraft in the air close to the flight experience aircraft that you may or may not collide with while forming up, proceed to 25,000 feet where the temperatures are -30'F where the untrained public's O2 masks will freeze up making them pass out and possibly die, have explosions inside the aircraft and make at least 1 or 2 of the participants have to bail out over the field before landing.
I think that the way most of the flying aircraft are outfitted (only riding in Yankee Lady and seeing images of the interiors of the other fliers) do a great job making you feel the cramped quarters. Add to that the sound and smell of the engines and the vibrations felt throughout the aircraft I think that most people with any knowlege of the air war during WWII could close their eyes and imagine they were there.
During my flight I had the honor of joining two gentlemen who bailed out TOGETHER out of the same aircraft over Germany in 1944. One gentleman was a bombadier/navigator (he flew when one man was doing both jobs) and sat at his station for one last mission and I crawled up there and just watched him. Even though the aircraft may not be fitted with every bell and whistle that was there during his war time missions he felt something that brought back A LOT of memories.
I am all for accuracy in restorations BUT a missing knob or radio, I dare say even the full turret mechanism, is not going to detract from the feeling of what it must have been like to fly in these aircraft back then.
OK, back to work for me.
Regards,
Mark
I would have to agree with James that if the main goal is to re-live the terrorizing sacrifices that these aircrews endured during WWII then get everyone dressed up in the full kit including electric heat suits that will occasionally short out and burn you, make sure there are at least a few other large aircraft in the air close to the flight experience aircraft that you may or may not collide with while forming up, proceed to 25,000 feet where the temperatures are -30'F where the untrained public's O2 masks will freeze up making them pass out and possibly die, have explosions inside the aircraft and make at least 1 or 2 of the participants have to bail out over the field before landing.
I think that the way most of the flying aircraft are outfitted (only riding in Yankee Lady and seeing images of the interiors of the other fliers) do a great job making you feel the cramped quarters. Add to that the sound and smell of the engines and the vibrations felt throughout the aircraft I think that most people with any knowlege of the air war during WWII could close their eyes and imagine they were there.
During my flight I had the honor of joining two gentlemen who bailed out TOGETHER out of the same aircraft over Germany in 1944. One gentleman was a bombadier/navigator (he flew when one man was doing both jobs) and sat at his station for one last mission and I crawled up there and just watched him. Even though the aircraft may not be fitted with every bell and whistle that was there during his war time missions he felt something that brought back A LOT of memories.
I am all for accuracy in restorations BUT a missing knob or radio, I dare say even the full turret mechanism, is not going to detract from the feeling of what it must have been like to fly in these aircraft back then.
OK, back to work for me.
Regards,
Mark
Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:21 am
Good points. Thanks.
Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:04 pm
I have some experience with writting some things like this up. I would be happy to make something up and submit it.
cott wrote:TriangleP brings up some excellent points. I personally have only been to one tour stop with the Overcast, and then only as a spectator. The point of having the plane out there touring IS to expose people to history. But, an airplane without it's story is just a hunk of metal ( though a B-17 is a quite attractive hunk of metal...).
Really, preserving these airplanes is about preserving the stories that went with them, and passing those stories on to the next generation while using the airplane to give some sort of context. After all, aren't we all just a bunch of people who get together to talk about neat stuff???
I will talk to our tour coordinator for the Overcast and see what kind of historical context we can provide to flight participants while she's out on the road. Thanks for bringing up these kinds of issues. If we want warbirds to maintain some sort of relevance going into the future, we have to do better to communicate to others what they represent. Again, any suggestions are helpful!
Nice mock-up, by the way! Look forward to the film.
Chris
Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:10 pm
Triangle P
Thanks for noticing.
A lot of our kit has not been re-installed, but it will be soon.
Some of our stuff is pretty worn out and some of it has been repainted in shades that will no doubt annoy the righteous brethren out there.
But launching yesterday from the navigator's-bombardier's section was an experience that brought me as close to the "real" experience as I think you can get... without dropping bombs, getting shot at by planes, rockets and flak cannons or freezing half (or all the way) to death and tasting oxygen through rubber face masks.
I thought more in terms of my experience being closer to Pacific or North African, because it was a sweat box.
And the nerves were there because it was a Maintenance conformity flight.
That means we were wondering what was going to break.
TEXAS RAIDERS as a Flying museum... not quite accurate... We aren't going to leave a Verys pistol and a bag of flares for some idiot to steal or fire... No smell and vibration of 50 cal. ammo blasting away!
But any B17 Flight Experience offers a visceral experience or re-enactment that would be virtually impossible to re-create in a virtual Flight Simulator. And quiet Museums have their own charm, but they have the feeling of a Shrine at best, or a mausoleum unless they offer some auditory input.
TR has enough of the feel of a combat vet to get the job done for now.
Is it as good as the museum birds? Nope!
But I am where I want to be and I recommend the experience to anyone who can beg, borrow, but NOT STEAL the funds to see, feel, hear and smell for themselves.
SPANNER
Thanks for noticing.
A lot of our kit has not been re-installed, but it will be soon.
Some of our stuff is pretty worn out and some of it has been repainted in shades that will no doubt annoy the righteous brethren out there.
But launching yesterday from the navigator's-bombardier's section was an experience that brought me as close to the "real" experience as I think you can get... without dropping bombs, getting shot at by planes, rockets and flak cannons or freezing half (or all the way) to death and tasting oxygen through rubber face masks.
I thought more in terms of my experience being closer to Pacific or North African, because it was a sweat box.
And the nerves were there because it was a Maintenance conformity flight.
That means we were wondering what was going to break.
TEXAS RAIDERS as a Flying museum... not quite accurate... We aren't going to leave a Verys pistol and a bag of flares for some idiot to steal or fire... No smell and vibration of 50 cal. ammo blasting away!
But any B17 Flight Experience offers a visceral experience or re-enactment that would be virtually impossible to re-create in a virtual Flight Simulator. And quiet Museums have their own charm, but they have the feeling of a Shrine at best, or a mausoleum unless they offer some auditory input.
TR has enough of the feel of a combat vet to get the job done for now.
Is it as good as the museum birds? Nope!
But I am where I want to be and I recommend the experience to anyone who can beg, borrow, but NOT STEAL the funds to see, feel, hear and smell for themselves.
SPANNER
Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:36 pm
N3703G has a very accurate interior, pretty much stock inside there, as most of Tallichet's stuff is/was. May not be shiny new, but it's all there.
Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:48 pm
Important stuff first - CONGRATS to the Texas Raiders crew. Well done.
And good post too, Spanner.
Heh.
A little aside, some may already know. When researching the job of a B-24 Formation Ship pilot for the Aircrew feature in Aeroplane, I didn't realise that they'd often fire color flares for recognition and formation and occasionally that would go wrong -and the big colour bang was the formation ship and crew going up in smoke. Shesh - no 'safe' jobs.
I trust everyone appreciated my earliest post was tongue in cheek, and just a reality check when we get a bit carried away over the thing.
Regards,
And good post too, Spanner.
SPANNERmkV wrote:And the nerves were there because it was a Maintenance conformity flight.
That means we were wondering what was going to break.
Heh.
TEXAS RAIDERS as a Flying museum... not quite accurate... We aren't going to leave a Verys pistol and a bag of flares for some idiot to steal or fire... No smell and vibration of 50 cal. ammo blasting away!
A little aside, some may already know. When researching the job of a B-24 Formation Ship pilot for the Aircrew feature in Aeroplane, I didn't realise that they'd often fire color flares for recognition and formation and occasionally that would go wrong -and the big colour bang was the formation ship and crew going up in smoke. Shesh - no 'safe' jobs.
I trust everyone appreciated my earliest post was tongue in cheek, and just a reality check when we get a bit carried away over the thing.
Regards,
Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:24 am
I would say the one with the best interior is the one that I happen to be in at the moment- especially if we are in the air at the time.
Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:10 am
Relating to the later part of the discussion, here's the IWM using the (static) Mary Alice as a prop.
http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/server/show/conEvent.3149
http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/server/show/conEvent.3149
B-17 Bomber Crew
Date: 31st October 2009 to 1st November 2009
Location: IWM Duxford
Meet a waist gunner from Duxford’s B-17 Flying Fortress, Mary Alice. Learn about what life was like for the men of the United States Eighth Air Force, in a country that was completely alien to their American way of life. Hear about bombing missions over occupied Europe and the dangers faced by the crews of the B-17 Flying Fortresses.
No extra cost, standard admission applies – and as usual children come free.
Ticket prices:
Children FREE (0-15 years inclusive, children must be accompanied by an adult)
Adult (16-59 years) £16.00
Senior (60 years or over) £12.80
Student £12.80
Unemployed £8.00
Adult, Senior, Student - disabled £9.60
Carer (one per disabled visitor) FREE
Where American Air Museum
When 2.00pm - 4.00pm
No booking required and all sessions are drop in. For more information call 01223 499 342.
Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:03 am
Fantasy of flight's Fort is a bit on the gutted side, but the way they are using her is an interesting experience. As you enter the WW2 portion of the museum, first you have a mission briefing, then you enter the rear hatch of the 17. It is dark and as you make your way forward, the roar of engines and radio chatter is piped in as you make your way forward through the waist, radio room and bomb-bay, then turning left and exiting just behind the cockpit. You could not do that if all the gear was in place. But it is dark, I'm thinking the experience is more like a RAF night mission, but that is beside the point! It is an interesting use for the fort, but the added "improvements" in order to make it easier to walk through did more damage to the damaged airframe. She was tossed half a mile by Hurricane Andrew, and so would have taken a lot of work to get her back in the air. Kermit's priority is NOT to fly heavies....but that is a different thread. Anyone else who has been through the FoF bird have any thoughts?
Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:53 am
I believe that the B-17 at Weeks is a different one than the one that got tossed during hurricane Andrew. The B-17 that was tossed was being stored at Riley's Museum until it closed down.
Mark
Mark