Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:17 pm
But the thing's been difficult to start when hot, or warm. It roars into life when starting cold, but any other time.... problematic. Wind it forwards... wind it backwards... prime... clear it out... pump the throttle... no pattern at all. Frustrating.
On the way back we stopped at Greenbank where they have fuel on a cardlock system -- a wonderful thing for small airports! And then I just about killed the battery trying to get it going again.
The problem is the primer. It's an odd type. There is very little tactile feedback when you're pumping it. Very difficult to tell if it's moving fuel or not. And there is only one priming point on the engine intake manifold. That lever on it is a on-off primer fuel valve. Odd thing.
I've got to take it all apart and see what it's actually doing. Replace the seals and O rings, and check the nozzle to make sure it isn't plugged.
Anyway, a fellow magically drove up to the completely empty grass airfield as we got ready, and then got out of his car and walked over after we'd tried about 10 false starts. It turns out he is an AME. I didn't question what he was doing there or where he came from. I just drafted him into service. He fiddled with it, and then, with me switching the mags on with one hand, holding the starter lever with the other, and with him pumping like mad on the primer as it turned over, it coughed and spluttered into life. Success!
It sure it better to be lucky than smart. Although now that I think of it, smart wasn't much in evidence here. Until he showed up.
Great day though!
On the way back we stopped at Greenbank where they have fuel on a cardlock system -- a wonderful thing for small airports! And then I just about killed the battery trying to get it going again.
The problem is the primer. It's an odd type. There is very little tactile feedback when you're pumping it. Very difficult to tell if it's moving fuel or not. And there is only one priming point on the engine intake manifold. That lever on it is a on-off primer fuel valve. Odd thing.
I've got to take it all apart and see what it's actually doing. Replace the seals and O rings, and check the nozzle to make sure it isn't plugged.
Anyway, a fellow magically drove up to the completely empty grass airfield as we got ready, and then got out of his car and walked over after we'd tried about 10 false starts. It turns out he is an AME. I didn't question what he was doing there or where he came from. I just drafted him into service. He fiddled with it, and then, with me switching the mags on with one hand, holding the starter lever with the other, and with him pumping like mad on the primer as it turned over, it coughed and spluttered into life. Success!
It sure it better to be lucky than smart. Although now that I think of it, smart wasn't much in evidence here. Until he showed up.
Great day though!
Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:55 am
Very quick! Very quick indeed!
Dave
Dave
Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:24 am
Lunkenheimer primer....same as what most pre-1940 airplanes used. There was a short stroke and long stroke version. The short stroke pulls out maybe 2". The seal is metal to metal and the needle valve can can get somewhat out of round causing a leak. That is why I keep a stash of these for the Wacos.
For starting our Warner, we give 3 shots of prime while pulling the prop through. We then pump the throttle twice. Mags are retarded (both on ours, probably just the right on yours). Hit the starter (in our case I prop it). Starts on the first or second try. Now, if its hot......all bets are off but that is only because of me not being able to spin the wood prop fast enough with enough leverage. I am successful 50% of the time at best.
For starting our Warner, we give 3 shots of prime while pulling the prop through. We then pump the throttle twice. Mags are retarded (both on ours, probably just the right on yours). Hit the starter (in our case I prop it). Starts on the first or second try. Now, if its hot......all bets are off but that is only because of me not being able to spin the wood prop fast enough with enough leverage. I am successful 50% of the time at best.
Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:43 am
Thanks, Andy. Yeah, we've got the 2" stroke type. I took the nozzle out of the intake manifold, and it indeed works. But I wonder if, after shutdown, all the fuel in the long primer line perhaps vapourizes, so that a subsequent hot start requires more pumps on the primer to re-fill the line. Anyway, I think we'll try pumping-while-turning, and see how it goes. (And we'll do it in front of my hangar where I can plug in my battery charger!)
Went to the Vintage Wings of Canada "Open House" last weekend. It was a full-blown airshow. I parked the Fairchild, then flew the Fox Moth and the P-40 for 4 days.
Good company!
Here are 2 of my favourite mounts -- quite a dream, really, to commute in the one on the left, to fly the one on the right. (And please, don't wake me up.)
Went to the Vintage Wings of Canada "Open House" last weekend. It was a full-blown airshow. I parked the Fairchild, then flew the Fox Moth and the P-40 for 4 days.
Good company!
Here are 2 of my favourite mounts -- quite a dream, really, to commute in the one on the left, to fly the one on the right. (And please, don't wake me up.)
Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:30 pm
Dave Hadfield wrote: But I wonder if, after shutdown, all the fuel in the long primer line perhaps vapourizes, so that a subsequent hot start requires more pumps on the primer to re-fill the line.
Very likely. And what good intentioned maintenance people do is to tighten the packing nut on the primer barrel so the blasted things don't dribble on your leg while priming. While not exactly conducive to good practice, I have ours (several Lunks) loose. Yes, it pees on your leg when the barrel is pulled, but you can feel the resistance once the line is filled. With the nut snug, you get no tactile feedback whether you are moving fluid or air. With it loose, the knob has no resistance when pumping stroking air, after line fills, there is resistance, THEN you start counting shots.
Many times the barrel nut need be only finger snug. That lever covering the knob is a shut off cock if installed correctly and the piston usually has a shut off needle at the end of stroke when stored.
Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:36 am
Thanks, W.U. I'll back it off a quarter turn and see what that's like.
Here'a another shot -- quite a few pictures of the Sept Open House at VWoC have been showing up on the Net.
Dave
Here'a another shot -- quite a few pictures of the Sept Open House at VWoC have been showing up on the Net.
Dave
Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:24 pm
So, to test W.U.'s ideas on the "Lunk" primer, I hooked up with Andy S. (the fellow who showed me how to install the cowl door back in page 3), and we flew to my friend Mike R's place (a glider strip), and -- gutsy move, Maverick! -- shut down the engine. Being prudent, we shut down right beside his shop.
And while chatting, Mike said, "Come see the Ornithopter." I said, "Huh?" and looked over the fuselage at the barn.
Sure enough, some odd looking wings were sticking out the doors. He said, "They're about ready to put it together."
Dave
And while chatting, Mike said, "Come see the Ornithopter." I said, "Huh?" and looked over the fuselage at the barn.
Sure enough, some odd looking wings were sticking out the doors. He said, "They're about ready to put it together."
Dave
Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:48 pm
Oh boy, I saw the Ornithopter at the Canadian Air & Space Museum fired up once and it was not very majestic. I thought it was going to beat itself into the ground. Interesting to watch.
Eric
Eric
Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:55 pm
And inside the barn, we saw the most incredible machine being built. Yeah, yeah, I know -- an Ornithopter. Sounds like a joke. But the engineering, and the sheer inventive attention to detail in this thing's construction was incredible.
I decided not to steal their thunder. It didn't seem right for me to publish photos from their workshop. So I'll let them proceed with that as they like. But here's a concept photo from their website www.hpoproject.ca/?q=content/the-project
I sure hope they update their site. What I saw today indicates they are far past the point of the images they've posted so far. But here's the thing, it's a HUMAN POWERED ornithopter!
I've been around flying machines my whole life, and I was simply stunned. These young engineers are passionate, creative, and driven to finish what they start. I saw materials being used in the most fascinating ways, and weight-saving being pursued to the point of obsession. They were very organized, very professional, totally devoted, and ingenious.
I have no idea about the theory of the thing. Will it fly? I don't know, but after what I saw today, I wouldn't bet against it.
The juxtaposition, the surroundings versus the machine, was surreal. I saw the most modern, up-to-date, carbon-fiber, mylar, foam, kevlar structure, housed in a 110 year-old barn that looked like it ought to have a mow full of moldy old hay. Yet there were computers, and fabricating machines and epoxies and wires running everywhere, while overhead was a horse-drawn hayfork on a track. Weird and wonderful.
More photos here. www.flickr.com/photos/hpoproject/3820643290/ They're out of date, but they give a flavour for what it's like at the field.
I decided not to steal their thunder. It didn't seem right for me to publish photos from their workshop. So I'll let them proceed with that as they like. But here's a concept photo from their website www.hpoproject.ca/?q=content/the-project
I sure hope they update their site. What I saw today indicates they are far past the point of the images they've posted so far. But here's the thing, it's a HUMAN POWERED ornithopter!
I've been around flying machines my whole life, and I was simply stunned. These young engineers are passionate, creative, and driven to finish what they start. I saw materials being used in the most fascinating ways, and weight-saving being pursued to the point of obsession. They were very organized, very professional, totally devoted, and ingenious.
I have no idea about the theory of the thing. Will it fly? I don't know, but after what I saw today, I wouldn't bet against it.
The juxtaposition, the surroundings versus the machine, was surreal. I saw the most modern, up-to-date, carbon-fiber, mylar, foam, kevlar structure, housed in a 110 year-old barn that looked like it ought to have a mow full of moldy old hay. Yet there were computers, and fabricating machines and epoxies and wires running everywhere, while overhead was a horse-drawn hayfork on a track. Weird and wonderful.
More photos here. www.flickr.com/photos/hpoproject/3820643290/ They're out of date, but they give a flavour for what it's like at the field.
Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:13 pm
Eric, that's right, the one at Downsview was the only one I'd ever heard of, too. But you and Bernie have got to grab your cameras and come up here and see this thing. I really mean it. It's ground floor stuff. You'd have the most interesting subject from an artistic point of view, and they, of course, could really use you.
Anyway, sure, if the thing flies up and down the strip with young Todd pumping like hell, it'll be miraculous, and well-deserved. But something MORE miraculous happened after today's tour -- I got the Warner to start, after a 1-hour sit, first try!!!
Yes indeed, stop the presses, I used the results of the discussions here in this thread, and, getting technical, "primed the snot out if it." Where a normal cold start involves 4 or 5 shots of prime, in this case today I used 8. That's 8 good ones, after working the air out of the barrel of the primer. And it fired into life as soon as the mags went to on.
I shrugged and waved to my friends as if to say, sure, it does that all the time, no big deal.
Taxied down the hill,
Out into the lovely wide grass strip,
And away.
Funny, the things an old airplane can show you...
Dave
Anyway, sure, if the thing flies up and down the strip with young Todd pumping like hell, it'll be miraculous, and well-deserved. But something MORE miraculous happened after today's tour -- I got the Warner to start, after a 1-hour sit, first try!!!
Yes indeed, stop the presses, I used the results of the discussions here in this thread, and, getting technical, "primed the snot out if it." Where a normal cold start involves 4 or 5 shots of prime, in this case today I used 8. That's 8 good ones, after working the air out of the barrel of the primer. And it fired into life as soon as the mags went to on.
I shrugged and waved to my friends as if to say, sure, it does that all the time, no big deal.
Taxied down the hill,
Out into the lovely wide grass strip,
And away.
Funny, the things an old airplane can show you...
Dave
Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:42 am
Dave Hadfield wrote:Yes indeed, stop the presses, I used the results of the discussions here in this thread, and, getting technical, "primed the snot out if it." Where a normal cold start involves 4 or 5 shots of prime, in this case today I used 8. That's 8 good ones, after working the air out of the barrel of the primer. And it fired into life as soon as the mags went to on.
I shrugged and waved to my friends as if to say, sure, it does that all the time, no big deal.
.......
Funny, the things an old airplane can show you...
Dave
Phew!!!....I was beginning to think you were going to leave us wondering,,,,
Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:28 pm
Glad to see my Ol' friend Wheelsup gave you an even better answer than I did. He's a crafty one and a good mechanic. I just received two special rods made for Warner engines that will connect both mags together so that you can retard both for a start. Have not installed one yet as I just received a call two days ago with another Waco with a 145 Warner that just did what we did to our first engine and sheared the drive gear for the starter in the engine....and he had a spark retard. That makes me very nervous and cost big $$$$$. May stick to hand propping.
Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:49 am
Sorry to hear that. I don't know anything about how a 145 is built, but my 185 (R-550) doesn't seem to have any problem starting once you get the mixture right.
As per the earlier photos in this thread, both mags on this engine have retard capability, and both are in use, linked, by a rod which sounds like the one you've got. This one rod, to which both retard-arms are attached, is controlled by the handle under the dash.
And with the electric starter, I let 2 blades go by before I switch the mags on. That's to get the whole affair moving forward, with some momentum, before the spark flies. I believe this lessens the chance of the engine trying to run backward at start. (I start the Wright 760 on the ATO with this same delay.)
EKC's Annual is coming up soon. I hope this one works out cheaper than the last one!
Here's another photo from Sunday. I'm afraid I surprised the truck.
Dave
As per the earlier photos in this thread, both mags on this engine have retard capability, and both are in use, linked, by a rod which sounds like the one you've got. This one rod, to which both retard-arms are attached, is controlled by the handle under the dash.
And with the electric starter, I let 2 blades go by before I switch the mags on. That's to get the whole affair moving forward, with some momentum, before the spark flies. I believe this lessens the chance of the engine trying to run backward at start. (I start the Wright 760 on the ATO with this same delay.)
EKC's Annual is coming up soon. I hope this one works out cheaper than the last one!
Here's another photo from Sunday. I'm afraid I surprised the truck.
Dave
Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:17 pm
Eventful flight on Sunday. Got airborne early, and linked up with Peter Lubig in a 172. Took some A2A photos. Lovely smooth air.
Then, heading south, I overflew the Tottenham strip and saw they were flying the Ornithopter. I had to scramble for a second, find the camera, fly the airplane, and maneuver into place as they towed the thing down the runway. Thus, lousy photos, but you can see it actually airborne. (Towed at this point. Once they get it tweaked, and the pilot used to the control response, then they try flapping the wings.) Very cool thing to watch. It gives the impression of gossamer lightness even when flying overhead.
Then, heading south, I overflew the Tottenham strip and saw they were flying the Ornithopter. I had to scramble for a second, find the camera, fly the airplane, and maneuver into place as they towed the thing down the runway. Thus, lousy photos, but you can see it actually airborne. (Towed at this point. Once they get it tweaked, and the pilot used to the control response, then they try flapping the wings.) Very cool thing to watch. It gives the impression of gossamer lightness even when flying overhead.
Last edited by Dave Hadfield on Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.