A tiny piece of history?

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:39 am

I found a small fragment of aircraft a while back, close to the crash site of B-17G-35-VE 42-97872 IW-A "Rosie's Sweatbox".
The crash site is just off the end of the main runway at the former RAF Deenethorpe, so there's a fair chance it may have come from another aircraft entirely.

The 65th anniversary of the crash on the 17th September 1944, in which the entire crew lost their lives, is coming up in a few days so I've been looking into things a little further.

"Rosie's Sweatbox" was a Vega-built B-17G, and the part certainly has Vega inspection stamps, highlighted here in yellow:

Oddly, underneath these inspection marks, the word SALVAGE had been stamped in, here in red:

The only other marking is the number 3-21110-1 on the other side, I'm assuming this is the part number. Can anyone confirm this, or even identify what this little bracket was?

In memory of the crew:
2nd Lt. F.E. Cook, Pilot
2nd Lt. P.H. Clark, Copilot
2nd Lt. C.R. Werner, Navigator
2nd Lt. F.W. Jorgensen, Bombardier
Cpl. W.E. Weston, Radio Operator
Cpl. W.M. Dahlin, Engineer / Top Turret Gunner
Sgt. J.L. Page Jr., Ball Turret Gunner
Cpl. J.R. Browning, Waist Gunner
Cpl. W.J. Ambrogetti, Tail Gunner

All the best,
PB

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:48 am

The insp stamp with the V as a part of it could mean Vega. It then could be produced by Lockheed Vega.
When I did work on P-38s there were many parts I came across with Salvage stamped on them.
I dunno why, maybe parts that didn't meet original specs but were accepted under some other engineered spec.
Anybody know?
Rich

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:00 am

Somewhere in my basement I believe I still have a few pieces from visiting the crash site of the Flying Wing between Mojave and present Edwards AFB.
This was in the 80s and there was still a small crater with burned stumps of vegetation. Only real small pieces scattered like self sealing fuel tank and plexiglass along with small alum parts.
Really eerie to stand there.
Rich

PJ · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:17 pm

We've run across parts for the PV-2 Harpoon with the salvage stamping. I hope someone can answe what this means.

PJ
PV-2 Harpoon "Hot Stuff"
www.amhf.org

Edward Sheetmetalhands · **Joined:** Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:44 am **Posts:** 257

I don't know much about B-17 structure, but I do know B-29's, so I will relate what I know about those (I realize the wings have some vast differences). Maybe a B-17 expert can correct me.

Small angles with that rivet configuration were used to attach the "bobbed" (partial) formers that surround the aileron actuation intercostals on the aft side of the rear wing spar of the outboard wing. The former was shorter than the typical one to attach a transverse web to cap off the area between two ribs. The short angles were used (4), because regular spar stiffeners could not go top to bottom because the aileron acutation intercostals (horizontal) were in the way.

Though, of course, the airframes are quite a bit different, and I know little to nothing about the B-17 structure. What I do know is that throughout the B family of aircraft; some engineering is copied and evolves with each model. My .02 cents.

Located in the middle of the aft spar of the ouboard wings (pay attention to the big arrow and ignore the little one).

Edward Sheetmetalhands · **Joined:** Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:44 am **Posts:** 257

Aft B-29 spar; 2 of the angles shown

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:20 pm

On the lower leg in the pics show 2 clumps on either side of the single hole.
I would guess, not knowing dimensions, that the clumps are what remains of a nutplate or possibly a dzuz spring.
Do you have pics that show the lower leg, top and bottom?
Rich

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:23 pm

A part stamped "Salvage" would have been rejected upon initial inspection by the QA (Quality Assurance) department. It would have been deemed useable after being reworked to a proper dimension/ having a missing part added etc, as opposed to being unable to be made usable (Scrap).
Not an uncommon occurence at all especially when using subcontractor supplied parts.
Where I used to work doing component overhaul we also would have assemblies torn down upon arrival and if certain parts could be reworked and used they were "Salvage" parts.
In a wartime environment it's also certain that suppliers would have had a hard time keeping up with specification revisions, etc. and would deliver parts that were contracted for, but would then need to be reworked to meet the latest specs.
Our QA department had little rubber stamps that they would use to mark the parts with, then bin them and send to the correct department for rework. Unsalvageable parts were damaged beyond repair by cutting through them with a band saw and placing them in a scrap bin.
At least that's how it worked when I did JT-8 and RB-211 overhauls. Your experiences may vary.

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:30 pm

Thanks for the info so far guys.

Here's a quick-and-nasty CAD image of the piece with dimensions that may be of use:

All the best,
Paul

mustanglover · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:38 pm

Enemy Ace wrote:

A part stamped "Salvage" would have been rejected upon initial inspection by the QA (Quality Assurance) department. It would have been deemed useable after being reworked to a proper dimension/ having a missing part added etc, as opposed to being unable to be made usable (Scrap).
Not an uncommon occurence at all especially when using subcontractor supplied parts.
Where I used to work doing component overhaul we also would have assemblies torn down upon arrival and if certain parts could be reworked and used they were "Salvage" parts.
In a wartime environment it's also certain that suppliers would have had a hard time keeping up with specification revisions, etc. and would deliver parts that were contracted for, but would then need to be reworked to meet the latest specs.
Our QA department had little rubber stamps that they would use to mark the parts with, then bin them and send to the correct department for rework. Unsalvageable parts were damaged beyond repair by cutting through them with a band saw and placing them in a scrap bin.
At least that's how it worked when I did JT-8 and RB-211 overhauls. Your experiences may vary.

Today we call them MRB (Material Review Board) parts. If it did not meet the drawings specifications it went to MRB and was locked up. The MRB group would inspect the part and determine the problems and decide if the part can be reworked or scrapped. Instead of being stamped "salvage" a part that had gone through this process is marked with an "MRB" stamp.

51fixer · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:08 pm

The holes on either side of the 3/8 hole should be either 3/32 or 1/8 and would be countersunk. A nutplate would have used 3/32 and a dzus spring would have been 1/8. There is a possibility of a large nutplate using 1/8 holes. The countersinking is done to set the rivet flush with the surface so nothing protrudes.
The distance between the rivet centerlines will help determine whether its a nutplate or a dzuz spring.
Rich

RAMC181 wrote:

Thanks for the info so far guys.

Here's a quick-and-nasty CAD image of the piece with dimensions that may be of use:

All the best,
Paul

SPANNERmkV · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:51 pm

I don't have a parts book with me... :oops:

But it looks like one of the many brackets that are rivited to the front of the upper and lower wing extension spars that are used to hold the small oval covers for the taper pins that hold the leading edge on.

The small holes on either side of the larger center hole would be nut plates and the side with all the "proof" marks would have been affixed to the spar. Unless I'm totally full of creamcheese, which wouldn't be the first time.

Clear enough? :roll:

Whatever it is, it looks like you've got Something that has been through the wars!

Will check a real parts book and get back witches.

SPANNER

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:26 pm

Thanks chaps,

I'll get the steel rule onto the thing in the morning to get more accurate measurements.
All the rivets are/were rusted, so iron/steel, if that gives any clues.

Spanner, if you have access to a copy of AN 01-20EG-4 that would be great. Hopefully it will be referenced in there.

I'm currently cleaning up another lump of twisted aluminium I found at the other end of the airfield that is turning out to be an engine data plate, from a Studebaker-made Cyclone. More on that as I scrape off the corrosion.

Thanks again,
PB

Pooner · **Posted:** Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:42 pm

Paul, wonderful find and great topic.

As you continue to till the soil out at the edge of the airfield, share with us a picture or two of how the place looks today, so those of us who're perpetually base-bound can see the spot and places we've always thought about going to explore one day... that is, if you're permitted to do so. Perhaps we can return the favor with some shots from the post WWII disposal sites or crashes here CONUS. No doubt someone will then choose to share a wartime shot to match with your contemporary for a "then and now" perspective.

Just a thought, and keep the thread going with more finds. I'm quite the fan of the little bits and pieces. The more obscure, the better.

- Rob

RAMC181 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:28 am

Here's some "Then and Now" shots I took at Deenethorpe for the Association's forum:

Radio Training building:

Crew room:

Chute Shop:

Sub Depot area:

No Forts over Deenethorpe today:

Just birds of prey and the occasional light plane using the old main runway:

All the best,
Paul

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