Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:07 pm
And then there are the bigger flying boats out there. Not many left. Too expensive to operate in niche markets I would guess. recently read that there were more Short Sunderlands built than PBYs. How many Sunderlands left!? Guess the "economy" of the PBY is slightly better!
It will be interesting to see if the NEW Super Goose sells well or not. The P&W Turboprop does make her look funny though. Almost twice the HP is nice though! In the current economy, probably not selling well, but we will see as things pick back up. It is still a niche market.
http://www.antillesseaplanes.com/
It will be interesting to see if the NEW Super Goose sells well or not. The P&W Turboprop does make her look funny though. Almost twice the HP is nice though! In the current economy, probably not selling well, but we will see as things pick back up. It is still a niche market.
http://www.antillesseaplanes.com/
Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:40 pm
& in related news:
My neighbor picked up a "new in the wooden box" PBY compass at a yard sale last week...
My neighbor picked up a "new in the wooden box" PBY compass at a yard sale last week...
Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:40 pm
Holedigger wrote: recently read that there were more Short Sunderlands built than PBYs. How many Sunderlands left!? Guess the "economy" of the PBY is slightly better!
You want a refund on that author's work.
According to Roy Blewett's excellent 'Survivors 2002' a great work on old transports:
Sunderlands (All types): 749 (Plus 16 Solents) Survivors: 6 and 2.
PBY/Catalina family: 3,281 + Russian production. Survivors: 96.
There are, of course no airworthy Sunderlands anywhere (The FoF example hasn't flown for some time and won't without a lot of work, IMHO.) while the Cat has a decent population of flyers at the moment. However AFAIK, none are earning their keep in a purely commercial way at the moment, although I'm open to correction (I'm excluding vintage aeroplane touring, warbird flights etc. ) Meanwhile there are Geese used as commuter and light feederliners - certainly in BC.
If you want a good percentage of survivors earning their keep, that's be the Mars...
Regards,
Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:28 am
Yeah, I thought the number on PBYs sounded low,My mistake they listed "Over 650 PBY Catalinas USED (not produced) by the RAF and over 700 Sunderlands PRODUCED. Everything on the page they listed numbers produced except the PBY they listed RAF numbers used, I'm sure just to confuse me in a quick reading!!! 
Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:41 am
Matt Gunsch wrote:the PBY has a fabric wing, a very big fabric wing, also no reversable props,
Original Gooses had a half-fabric wing too (from the rear spar aft to the trailing edge) pretty much just like the PBY did. There were several (at least two anyway) STC's to metalize Goose wings. McKinnon had one and Mattituck Air Base in NJ had another.
Gooses also have no reverse on their props either, unless you happen to have one of the five turbine Gooses (N77AQ, N70AL, N640, N642, and N221AG) still in existence. (All are registered as McKinnons, but N640, N642, and N221AG are really just G-21A's with a lot of STC's installed - that doesn't make them "McKinnons" and only N642 was actually re-certified by McKinnon but it has had serious conformity issues with regard to its nominal identification as a model G-21C "Hybrid" - i.e. a twin turbine conversion of a 4-engine model G-21C per STC SA1320WE - ever since it was first converted by McKinnon in 1968.)
Last edited by Rajay on Fri May 11, 2012 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:58 am
Also,
Someone suggested that a Mallard or Albatross would provide more capacity than a Goose. True, but that doesn't help get into spots too small for a PBY. A long-wing Albatross has a span of something like 96 feet - compared to a PBY's 104 feet. A Goose, even with the retractable float mod, is less than 52 feet. Pretty big difference.
In the meantime. try to find a Mallard that has had its wing spar sections re-certified. There were only 59 in the first place; now they are truly a rare bird.
There were only 345 Gooses originally produced by Grumman between 1937 and 1945.
The Antilles Super Goose version of the McKinnon G-21G Turbo Goose, with PT6A engines (-27 or -28 originally, probably going to be -34's going forward) has 680 shp compared to R-985 radials' 450 hp (on a very good day only.) According to my math, that's closer to 150% bump in power, not 2x (200%).
As for economy of operation, the radial Goose (with R-985's) burns about 22 - 25 gallons per hour per side. That goes up to almost double with the turbine Gooses; 42 - 45 gph per side. That's why the turbine Gooses carry more than double the amount of fuel, up to 586 gallons (closer to 705 gallons in the Garrett powered "Aleutian Goose" N221AG), compared to the 220 gallons available in a stock G-21A.
I don't have any experience with the R-1830's on a stock PBY (R-2600's on a Super Cat) or the R-1820's on an Albatross, but I'd bet they burn a lot more fuel.
Finally, the useful load in a G-21A is only, as someone already mentioned, about 1,000 lbs (empty weights between 6,500 and 7,000 lbs and gross weights ranging from 8,000 lbs up to 9,200 lbs when equipped with McKinnon STC SA4-1467. The G-21G series Turbine Gooses had similar empty weights (call it 7,000 lbs) but were certified all the way up to 12,500 lbs - all of the increase therefore was available for useful load. Even though the fuel load went way up too, the payload was still significantly increased.
Someone suggested that a Mallard or Albatross would provide more capacity than a Goose. True, but that doesn't help get into spots too small for a PBY. A long-wing Albatross has a span of something like 96 feet - compared to a PBY's 104 feet. A Goose, even with the retractable float mod, is less than 52 feet. Pretty big difference.
In the meantime. try to find a Mallard that has had its wing spar sections re-certified. There were only 59 in the first place; now they are truly a rare bird.
There were only 345 Gooses originally produced by Grumman between 1937 and 1945.
The Antilles Super Goose version of the McKinnon G-21G Turbo Goose, with PT6A engines (-27 or -28 originally, probably going to be -34's going forward) has 680 shp compared to R-985 radials' 450 hp (on a very good day only.) According to my math, that's closer to 150% bump in power, not 2x (200%).
As for economy of operation, the radial Goose (with R-985's) burns about 22 - 25 gallons per hour per side. That goes up to almost double with the turbine Gooses; 42 - 45 gph per side. That's why the turbine Gooses carry more than double the amount of fuel, up to 586 gallons (closer to 705 gallons in the Garrett powered "Aleutian Goose" N221AG), compared to the 220 gallons available in a stock G-21A.
I don't have any experience with the R-1830's on a stock PBY (R-2600's on a Super Cat) or the R-1820's on an Albatross, but I'd bet they burn a lot more fuel.
Finally, the useful load in a G-21A is only, as someone already mentioned, about 1,000 lbs (empty weights between 6,500 and 7,000 lbs and gross weights ranging from 8,000 lbs up to 9,200 lbs when equipped with McKinnon STC SA4-1467. The G-21G series Turbine Gooses had similar empty weights (call it 7,000 lbs) but were certified all the way up to 12,500 lbs - all of the increase therefore was available for useful load. Even though the fuel load went way up too, the payload was still significantly increased.
Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:12 pm
JDK wrote:However AFAIK, none are earning their keep in a purely commercial way at the moment, although I'm open to correction (I'm excluding vintage aeroplane touring, warbird flights etc. )
I seem to remember, and certainly correct me if I am wrong, that there were some PBY's being used in either Spain, Portugal, or Italy as firebombers? I am guessing that, if there are, the operating economics of the CL215 have got to be better.
Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:08 pm
Ryan - there were active PBY waterbombers in Spain and Portugal up until a few years ago when they were withdrawn but none in Italy. Of those in Portugal, one went back to Chile from where it came from and two are now in Australia. Of the ones in Spain, three are still there of which one has been sold to a Swede, one is for sale and one is in the Cuatro Vientos museum. A further one went back to the USA.