Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:08 pm
Yes, we'd love support of any kind.
I've been copying the Maintenance Manual for the Sabre this week. I could use a pickup full of money (or benevolent supplier) to provide all the sequence and control valves I'm gonna need for the landing gear doors, not to mention the other pieces that have been robbed off of poor '689.
Scott
I've been copying the Maintenance Manual for the Sabre this week. I could use a pickup full of money (or benevolent supplier) to provide all the sequence and control valves I'm gonna need for the landing gear doors, not to mention the other pieces that have been robbed off of poor '689.
Scott
Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:19 pm
Good grief!!!! 
Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:09 pm
CrewDawg wrote:B-17 Restoration and Maintenance
- Reconfiguration back to Pathfinder (Radome and Radio Compartment Equipment)
If it helps any, here's my annotated B-17G H2X Installation photo:
All the best,
PB
Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:55 pm
Paul,
Thanks for the H2X photo. Do you have it in a large, high-res version?
Any others?
Cheers,
Thanks for the H2X photo. Do you have it in a large, high-res version?
Any others?
Cheers,
Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:48 am
the330thbg wrote:Good grief!!!!
Well, it's not really as bad as it could be. Our Sabre was used as a parts source to get her two sisters flying. I don't think it will be impossible to find the stuff we need, but I'm sure it will run into a chunk of change to make it happen.
Thanks for that H2X photo, Paul. Every reference source is helpful. What I'd really like to see is the antenna installation and mount so we can scrounge up the parts we need. I pretty much know what goes there, but not exactly how it was fitted.
Scott
Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:40 am
k5dh wrote:Paul,
Thanks for the H2X photo. Do you have it in a large, high-res version?
Any others?
Cheers,
I've got two different views of that installation. I'll tidy them up and e-mail them later this evening, along with any others I can find. I think I have some photos of the additional radar photography gear that went behing the Mickey operator's seat too.
In the meantime here's a couple of shots of the scanner mounting and associated equipment I hope are of use:
All the best,
Paul
Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:33 pm
Wow, Paul! Those two photos have completely changed my outlook on the radome installation. I'd been led to believe that a B-24 ball turret hydraulic stanchion had been modified to run the radome up and down. From the first photo you just posted it looks like a jackscrew and hand-cranked gearbox did the work. If they were all mounted like that my plan just became infinitely easier. 
Thanks!!!!!
Now to change the subject just a little: I've seen the large numerals on the radio room bulkhead (second photo of Paul's post) on other B-17 interior photos. I'm wondering if that is the last three of the serial number or was it only applied by certain Bomb Groups? It seems from memory that Little Miss Mischief had them also.
Scott
Thanks!!!!!
Now to change the subject just a little: I've seen the large numerals on the radio room bulkhead (second photo of Paul's post) on other B-17 interior photos. I'm wondering if that is the last three of the serial number or was it only applied by certain Bomb Groups? It seems from memory that Little Miss Mischief had them also.
Scott
Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:52 pm
Great stuff Paul, thank you! We're looking forward to seeing the hi-res versions!
Scott, I'm not convinced that it's not hydraulic. It looks like a small electric motor that could drive a pump on the LH side of the radome ring in the first picture.
It also looks like no two were alike. Both pictures show different equipment in the forward LH corner of the waist compartment and the decking around the radome is different also.
It also makes me want to paint the interior silver rather than OD. The silver will keep the originality somewhat while helping to prevent corrosion.
Pardon my ignorance I should probably know this, but is that the parachute that the gunner is tethered to in the second pic? (on the floor below the gun).
Scott, I'm not convinced that it's not hydraulic. It looks like a small electric motor that could drive a pump on the LH side of the radome ring in the first picture.
It also looks like no two were alike. Both pictures show different equipment in the forward LH corner of the waist compartment and the decking around the radome is different also.
It also makes me want to paint the interior silver rather than OD. The silver will keep the originality somewhat while helping to prevent corrosion.
Pardon my ignorance I should probably know this, but is that the parachute that the gunner is tethered to in the second pic? (on the floor below the gun).
Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:27 am
Glad to be of assistance guys.
The number on the radio room bulkhead is the aircraft's Contract Number, not the Serial Number, and was applied by the manufacturer during construction.
In the full copy of the (cropped) photo above, although the last of the four digits wasn't visible, I was able to cross reference it with the aircraft on hand with the 401st Bomb Group at the time to get the serial number:
Contract number 731x is for part of block B-17G-40-VE.
That block started with 42-97936, which results in ten possible aircraft, 42-97946 to 42-97955.
Two of these aircraft were allocated to the 401st Bomb Group, '947 and '953.
The photo is dated 22nd November 1944, and '953 IY-N (615th) was lost on the 13th of July 1944.
This leaves 42-97947 SC-U of the 612th Bomb Squadron, which was PFF equipped.
The photo is one of two originally taken the same day to illustrate the parachute safety strap developed by the 401st, to make sure the parachute pack could be located by the crewman in the event of an emergency.
All the best,
Paul
The number on the radio room bulkhead is the aircraft's Contract Number, not the Serial Number, and was applied by the manufacturer during construction.
In the full copy of the (cropped) photo above, although the last of the four digits wasn't visible, I was able to cross reference it with the aircraft on hand with the 401st Bomb Group at the time to get the serial number:
Contract number 731x is for part of block B-17G-40-VE.
That block started with 42-97936, which results in ten possible aircraft, 42-97946 to 42-97955.
Two of these aircraft were allocated to the 401st Bomb Group, '947 and '953.
The photo is dated 22nd November 1944, and '953 IY-N (615th) was lost on the 13th of July 1944.
This leaves 42-97947 SC-U of the 612th Bomb Squadron, which was PFF equipped.
The photo is one of two originally taken the same day to illustrate the parachute safety strap developed by the 401st, to make sure the parachute pack could be located by the crewman in the event of an emergency.
All the best,
Paul
Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:34 am
Thanks, Paul. I don't think I have ever asked the question about that bulkhead number before. Another small detail that helps track down the identity of these machines.
Bill, check out the photos of Memphis Belle on the main hangar thread. NMUSAF stripped and applied a clear protectant to her interior. I believe I would prefer doing the same thing if it's feasible. It'll be a nasty, dirty job to strip it, but it would be more accurate.
Scott
Bill, check out the photos of Memphis Belle on the main hangar thread. NMUSAF stripped and applied a clear protectant to her interior. I believe I would prefer doing the same thing if it's feasible. It'll be a nasty, dirty job to strip it, but it would be more accurate.
Scott
Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:48 pm
Well, we worked on the B-17 a little this weekend. Very little, as it turned out. Most of the crew ended up reorganizing some space in the other hangar to make room in the main museum hangar. I crawled under the cockpit aft floor in order to start working on the engine control cables. Here is a shot of one side, the other looks much the same. All the masking tape is my farmboy labeling system. 
And here is the less-than-comfortable workspace I'll be in for a number of hours tweaking turnbuckles. By the way, it was around 100 degrees already when Ellen took this photo, on the way to 105:
It wasn't all work, though.
We had fellow WIXer, Sabremech, come by to look over our F-86F. I really, really appreciate having him spend a good part of Saturday giving the little jet a good looking over for us. His inspection and opinion of the airframe was good news and bad news.....it looks like the Sabre is a good candidate for restoration to airworthiness. That's the good news--the bad news is that now I have to start raising money and finding benefactors to make it happen. It'll be a long term project, but I'm hopeful we can put together the financial backing that will get the jet back in the air sometime in the future. Thanks again, David, I'm in your debt.
Scott
And here is the less-than-comfortable workspace I'll be in for a number of hours tweaking turnbuckles. By the way, it was around 100 degrees already when Ellen took this photo, on the way to 105:
It wasn't all work, though.
We had fellow WIXer, Sabremech, come by to look over our F-86F. I really, really appreciate having him spend a good part of Saturday giving the little jet a good looking over for us. His inspection and opinion of the airframe was good news and bad news.....it looks like the Sabre is a good candidate for restoration to airworthiness. That's the good news--the bad news is that now I have to start raising money and finding benefactors to make it happen. It'll be a long term project, but I'm hopeful we can put together the financial backing that will get the jet back in the air sometime in the future. Thanks again, David, I'm in your debt.
Scott
Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:51 pm
Hi Doc, Bill and Scott,
Thank you for the hospitality and for letting me drool on your Sabre. As I said when I was there, what a time capsule. This will make an excellent airworthy Sabre. Let me know what I can do to help you guys reach your goal. Sorry I didn't have the time to make it to the North hangar. I'll be back for a week the first part of November and will stop by and spend some more time around the VFM birds.
Thank you,
David
Thank you for the hospitality and for letting me drool on your Sabre. As I said when I was there, what a time capsule. This will make an excellent airworthy Sabre. Let me know what I can do to help you guys reach your goal. Sorry I didn't have the time to make it to the North hangar. I'll be back for a week the first part of November and will stop by and spend some more time around the VFM birds.
Thank you,
David
Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:04 pm
Okay, this will probably be the last mention of our F-86 on this thread. I suppose I could start a new one for the Sabre now, but it will fall off the front pages pretty rapidly since I'm not planning anything for it in the near future. We've got plenty going on with the Fortress and upcoming hangar dance, and I don't have any kind of funding for the little jet yet.
We talked a little about whether we should strip and polish the airplane. Here is the first result of my effort to find out if it is feasible. I decided to pull an access panel that got plenty of use/abuse during her service life so I could evaluate the surface. This is the brake cylinder access panel that lives on the side of the fuselage.
As found, with four layers of paint:
When I stripped the paint off I was able to find two camouflage colors, a heavy silver coat, and that odd gold tint/primer coat on top of the Alclad. Each coat of paint was very professionally applied, and I was really relieved to find that the base metal hadn't been etched or sanded before the gold tint and silver went on. I also found a stencil on the second green coat that read "Accesso Cilindro De Freno". You can make out the lettering if you look carefully.
Here is the stripped panel with the original North American-applied "Hyd. Brake Cyl. Access" lettering. I started to polish the lower part of the panel out of sheer impatience before I found my camera:
And here are two photos of the final product:
It didn't polish up too badly even though there are numerous scratches and screwdriver marks on it. It took me a couple of hours to strip and polish this little 9-inch plate, so you have some idea of the magnitude of stripping the entire ship, not to mention the environmental B.S. I'm sure will go along with the process. If I get enough enthusiastic volunteers I suppose we could strip it, but I'm afraid the enthusiasm will drop off pretty rapidly when we start stripping the undersides of things.......
Scott
We talked a little about whether we should strip and polish the airplane. Here is the first result of my effort to find out if it is feasible. I decided to pull an access panel that got plenty of use/abuse during her service life so I could evaluate the surface. This is the brake cylinder access panel that lives on the side of the fuselage.
As found, with four layers of paint:
When I stripped the paint off I was able to find two camouflage colors, a heavy silver coat, and that odd gold tint/primer coat on top of the Alclad. Each coat of paint was very professionally applied, and I was really relieved to find that the base metal hadn't been etched or sanded before the gold tint and silver went on. I also found a stencil on the second green coat that read "Accesso Cilindro De Freno". You can make out the lettering if you look carefully.
Here is the stripped panel with the original North American-applied "Hyd. Brake Cyl. Access" lettering. I started to polish the lower part of the panel out of sheer impatience before I found my camera:
And here are two photos of the final product:
It didn't polish up too badly even though there are numerous scratches and screwdriver marks on it. It took me a couple of hours to strip and polish this little 9-inch plate, so you have some idea of the magnitude of stripping the entire ship, not to mention the environmental B.S. I'm sure will go along with the process. If I get enough enthusiastic volunteers I suppose we could strip it, but I'm afraid the enthusiasm will drop off pretty rapidly when we start stripping the undersides of things.......
Scott
Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:48 pm
David,
I just want to echo Scott's thanks for coming out and spending a hot day in the hangar looking over our Sabre. That's one thing that I love about the majority of the people in Warbirds, we all try to help eachother as much as we can. I'm not sure how much we will be able to help you, but if there is ever anything please don't hesitate to call either me or Scott. We are looking forward to working with you when we start the Sabre restoration.
I just want to echo Scott's thanks for coming out and spending a hot day in the hangar looking over our Sabre. That's one thing that I love about the majority of the people in Warbirds, we all try to help eachother as much as we can. I'm not sure how much we will be able to help you, but if there is ever anything please don't hesitate to call either me or Scott. We are looking forward to working with you when we start the Sabre restoration.
Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:59 pm
Not much to report on the B-17 inspection. I was out today to button up some panels and clean up a little so that when we pull all the planes out of the hangar next weekend for a big hangar cleaning party things don't fly around in the wind and get damaged. Once we get the hangar cleaned up and the planes re-stacked in the hangar, we will back to being hot (literally - it was 104 today at KFTW), and heavy on the B-17, no other distractions (I hope). I would like to do some engine runs and have most of the inspection done prior to the Hangar Dance on October 10th.
The recent hangar shuffle and the preparation for the upcoming hangar clean up have taken some time away from Fort Fixin', but we'll be back at it the weekend after next.
Anyone interested in helping to clean up the hangar and/or airplanes is welcome to come and join us next weekend. We're doing a pot-luck BBQ. It's not going to be THAT hot!
The recent hangar shuffle and the preparation for the upcoming hangar clean up have taken some time away from Fort Fixin', but we'll be back at it the weekend after next.
Anyone interested in helping to clean up the hangar and/or airplanes is welcome to come and join us next weekend. We're doing a pot-luck BBQ. It's not going to be THAT hot!