Indonesian Warbirds (and Hi from Jakarta)

aseanaero · **Posted:** Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:53 pm

Quote:

Truly only answers the old-timers, their friends of the period could answer

I know a retired 2 Star General that may know , he still runs a charter company here in his 70's and he is still sharp as an axe

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documentation

Documentation for a monument would be long lost I would say.

BennoT6 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:06 am

Hi,

As far as I know no aircraft was sold abroad, so probably they were just scrapped. I do have the following Harvard/Texan-survivors in Indonesia.

Harvard 4, Canadian Car & Foundry
B-475
Jakarta 'B-475' Historic Flight; reported to be ex NEIAF; Harvard IIB frame ?

Texan, North American
B-448
Yogyakarta Museum Pusat TNI-AU; l/n 0303

Texan, North American
B-442
Yogyakarta Museum Akademi Angkatan Udara; l/n 0003

Texan, North American
B-440
Yogyakarta Museum Akademi Angkatan Udara; l/n 0003

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-427
Yogyakarta wreck Museum Pusat TNI-AU; not reported 9712

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-424
Padang Padang City Museum; l/n 040526

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-423
Kalijati was active with Historic Flight; confirmed as AT-16-ND

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-419
Bukitinggi Army Museum; l/n 040525

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-416
Jakarta ABRI Satriamandala Museum; AT-16-ND; l/n 0303

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-408
Bandung gateguard Sulaiman barracks Bandung

Texan, North American
B-4..
Bukitinggi

Texan, North American
B-4..
Jakarta-Selatan preserved in Polytechnic Jakarta-Selatan; l/n 9012

Texan, North American
B-4..
Morotai wreck

Any update in this would be most welcome.

Regards,

Benno

BennoT6 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:06 am

Hi,

As far as I know no T6-aircraft was sold abroad, so probably they were just scrapped. I do have the following Harvard/Texan-survivors in Indonesia.

Harvard 4, Canadian Car & Foundry
B-475
Jakarta 'B-475' Historic Flight; reported to be ex NEIAF; Harvard IIB frame ?

Texan, North American
B-448
Yogyakarta Museum Pusat TNI-AU; l/n 0303

Texan, North American
B-442
Yogyakarta Museum Akademi Angkatan Udara; l/n 0003

Texan, North American
B-440
Yogyakarta Museum Akademi Angkatan Udara; l/n 0003

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-427
Yogyakarta wreck Museum Pusat TNI-AU; not reported 9712

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-424
Padang Padang City Museum; l/n 040526

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-423
Kalijati was active with Historic Flight; confirmed as AT-16-ND

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-419
Bukitinggi Army Museum; l/n 040525

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-416
Jakarta ABRI Satriamandala Museum; AT-16-ND; l/n 0303

Harvard IIB, Noorduyn AT-16-ND
B-408
Bandung gateguard Sulaiman barracks Bandung

Texan, North American
B-4..
Bukitinggi

Texan, North American
B-4..
Jakarta-Selatan preserved in Polytechnic Jakarta-Selatan; l/n 9012

Texan, North American
B-4..
Morotai wreck

Any update in this would be most welcome.

Regards,

Benno

Django · **Posted:** Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:37 am

Welcome aboard Tony. This thread is a great read.

Is it possible that those Mustangs are WWII combat vets?

Glyn · **Joined:** Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:23 am **Posts:** 321

Tony,
There's a pm waiting for you.

airnutz · **Posted:** Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:47 pm

aseanaero wrote:

Quote:

Truly only answers the old-timers, their friends of the period could answer

I know a retired 2 Star General that may know , he still runs a charter company here in his 70's and he is still sharp as an axe

Quote:

documentation

Documentation for a monument would be long lost I would say.

You never know what'll turn up until we start stirring old memories. Thanks Tony!

Starduster77 · **Joined:** Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:00 am **Posts:** 169

Django wrote:

Welcome aboard Tony. This thread is a great read.

Is it possible that those Mustangs are WWII combat vets?

If I remember correctly some of the P-51's were from the Dutch .The Dutch transfered them over when they left Indonesia.

aseanaero · **Posted:** Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:03 pm

Quote:

Is it possible that those Mustangs are WWII combat vets?

Yes, but some are also Cavalier F-51s which were delivered and operated for a brief period before the OV-10 Broncos were delivered.

Even the Cavaliers probably saw action against rebels.

Thanks for the list Benno, 13 surviving AT-16s , I believe there was originally 74 in service.

aseanaero · **Posted:** Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:15 am

I dusted off the Fedora hat and found a bunch of old parts and bits and pieces in a forgotten warehouse.

Mainly Mig 17 and F-86 Sabre or possibly T-33 instruments and a box of Mig and other russian made aircraft maintenance manuals in ENGLISH !

It will take at least 6 months to get the paperwork done to get hold of it , stay tuned

Can anyone identify the engine cowls ?

I think this is a Wright R-1820-84 from a H-34 Choctaw Heli

jpharker · **Posted:** Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:52 am

The cowling in the first photo look like they are for a Grumman Albatross.

Marc · **Joined:** Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:22 am **Posts:** 28

Hi,

Good to see the Indonesia threads are alive again.
Regarding the Mustangs, basically there were three batches:
- the first batch included the remaining NEIAF Mustangs, all handed over to AURI in 1950 (the one in a Dutch museum is not an original NEIAF airplane),
- second batch was purchased in the US from surplus in 1958/1959, some almost surely from McClellan AFB,
- third batch (or more precisely two batches) is the Cavalier Mustangs that arrived in the early 1970's.
As far as I've found out, the Cavaliers were not used in combat operations.

aseanaero (Tony?), if you ever come across something related to Indonesian Mustangs, please let me know. I'm not wreck-chasing, but I'm very much interested in their history.
If your office is at Halim, and if the guy is still running his business there, try to meet First Air Marshall Njoto Soebandrio. he used to operate from the suites 27, 28 and 29 inside the terminal. I haven't spoken to him for several years now, but he is quite knowledgeable about the Russian airplanes (former An-12 air crew).

Regarding the T-6/Harvards, also three main types, or let's say more precisely that AURI pilots identified them as three main types:
- those handed over by the Dutch, known as AT-16s, B-416 is one of them,
- some acquired from surplus, most probably in the very early 1950's, and with the help of the American pilots working as instructors and advisors for AURI. In the rare logbooks I've seen, they are recorded as AT-6 or simply T-6, B-423 would be one of them,
- more acquired possibly from surplus, date and origin unknown to me, and generally written down as T-6G. B-475 would be one of them. One of the former Mustang pilots, also a former instructor at the academy, told me that he called T-6G those who had an stearable (if that's correct English) tailwheel.
Based on photos and logbooks I've seen, a total of 74 AT-16/T-6/T-6G/Harvard is plausible.

Benno, do you have more info about the location of 'Polytechnic Jakarta Selatan'?

There was another thread about Indonesian Migs. One senior officer told me he supervised the loading of a Mig-21F into a Starlifter, together with a Russian guided missile (most probably a KS-1).
The Mig pilots I've interviewed all liked the Mig-17 and all hated the Mig-19, saying it was rather violently shaking when approaching transsonic speeds, that it felt as if it had not been designed to be supersonic (their own words), and that it was a poor fire platform.

If you find anything about the TNI-AU Choctaws, like s/n or c/n, it would also be interesting. they are former US machines from Vietnam, reportedly overhauled by Air America prior to their transfer to Indonesia under the Peace Rotor program.

Cheers!
Marc

aseanaero · **Posted:** Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:51 am

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As far as I've found out, the Cavaliers were not used in combat operations.

I heard the Cavaliers did see some action against rebels but don't know the specifics.

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First Air Marshall Njoto Soebandrio

He's now Chief of Air Staff (Air Marshall)

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The Mig pilots I've interviewed all liked the Mig-17 and all hated the Mig-19, saying it was rather violently shaking when approaching transsonic speeds, that it felt as if it had not been designed to be supersonic (their own words), and that it was a poor fire platform

My discussion with ex Mig pilots confirms this , they all hated the Mig 19 with a passion and said the Mig 17 was a real pilots plane.

I always wondered where all the Migs and spares went and I heard stories of them being shipped to the USA in the mid 70s , including some brand new migs still unassembled. Then I read the Red Eagles thread and 'aha' !

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28806&highlight=red+eagles+mig

Quote:

If you find anything about the TNI-AU Choctaws, like s/n or c/n, it would also be interesting. they are former US machines from Vietnam, reportedly overhauled by Air America prior to their transfer to Indonesia under the Peace Rotor program

The real expert on this subject is Jake Dangle at Dangle Aviation in Tucson , Jake was involved in getting the TNI-AU S-58T program up and running and came to Indonesia a few times (I know Jake). The S-58Ts are all grounded now after a fatal accident in 2008.

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The Sikorsky UH-34Ds of Air America’s Project “Peace rotor”:
In 1972/73, Air America reconstructed 14 former US Marines UH-34Ds at Udorn and delivered them TNI-AU or Indonesian Air Force (see: UTD/Abadie). This was called “Project Peace rotor”. Probably, these aircraft were later based at Semplak AFB, West Java (Lundh, Sikorsky H-34, p. 84). None of the UH-34Ds which are listed in Lundh, Sikorsky H-34, p. 84, as belonging to the Indonesian Air Force, were former “Peace rotor” aircraft, as they had already been deactivated by the USMC long time before (see: Sid Nanson, “USMC Helicopter Disposition Vietnam Era”, at: http://popasmoke.com/dispositions.html; info kindly sent to the author by Steve Stevens in his e-mail dated 2 January 2005). Those aircraft were:
BuA 143967 c/n 58.466 > H-???? (deactivated already on 31 December 70)
BuA 143982 c/n 58.515 > H-???? (deactivated already on 22 May 70)
BuA 145783 c/n 58.952 > H-???? (deactivated already on 31 December 70)
BuA 147175 c/n 58.1116 > H-3408 (deactivated already on 24 February 68)
BuA 148105 c/n 58.1224 > H-3413 (deactivated already on 31 December 70)
BuA 149374 c/n 58.1476 > H-3414 (deactivated already on 12 March 71)
and
BuA 150558 c/n 58.1685 > H-3415 (deactivated already on 4 June 71)

The full document can be downloaded here.

http://www.utdallas.edu/library/collections/speccoll/Leeker/uh342.pdf

I think a lot of these H-34s became S-58Ts

Marc , were you working in Jakarta at some point ?

Marc · **Joined:** Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:22 am **Posts:** 28

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I think a lot of these H-34s became S-58Ts

Indeed the flyable UH-34s became S-58Ts. I don't think any new airframe was purchased at the time, but I could be wrong. Do you know which years Jake Dangle came to Indonesia?

Quote:

were you working in Jakarta at some point ?

I've spent 17 years continuously in Indonesia (1991 to 2008), mainly Jakarta and West Java, but also many trips to some remote islands, but not Papua. I work in Saudi since October last year, but right now I'm in Jakarta for some leave.

Regarding the Cavaliers, their service period was actually very short, as they were all grounded after a series of accidents in 1975. There is a slight possibility that they might have been used against the remnants of the rebels in West Kalimantan, but one of the pilots was adamant he had not flown combat missions in a Cavalier. I found no evidence of operationnal deployment of Mustangs to West Kalimantan in 1973/1975. As far as I know, they were not used for the East Timor invasion either.

The Njoto Soebandrio I was talking about is much older, he must be in his 70's now.

aseanaero · **Posted:** Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:15 am

Marc wrote:

Quote:

Do you know which years Jake Dangle came to Indonesia?

I have to call Jake this week so I'll ask him

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As far as I know, they were not used for the East Timor invasion either.

You know Indonesia , so many conflicting statements and they are quite reserved about discussing internal military operations , I had one conversation with a very brief comment regarding the Cavaliers being used in action but they didn't elaborate where and I didn't push for details as I didn't know the guy that well . I'll search on some of the Indonesian language aviation forums and see if that yields anything.

Annexation of East Timor happened in 1975 and the OV-10s arrived in 1976 so it's possible it was East Timor.

aseanaero · **Posted:** Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:33 am

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Kedatangan tiga pesawat ini diterima Deputi KSAU Marsekal Madya TNI Ashadi Tjahjadi dan Komandan Skuadron Udara 3 Mayor (P) Rusmali Arifin. Oktober 1976 langsung dipamerkan di ulang tahun ABRI dan akhir Oktober 1976 diterjunkan ke daerah operasi pemulihan keamanan di Timor Timur. Tanggal 13 November 1976, 17 Desember, dan 16 Februari 1977 masing-masing datang tiga pesawat. Pada 16 Maret 1977 datang lagi dua pesawat dan untuk melengkapi menjadi satu skuadron berkekuatan 16 pesawat, tanggal 17 Mei 1977 datang lagi dua pesawat yang semuanya dengan nomor regristasi S-101
hingga S-116. Regristasi S kemudian diganti dengan TT, yang berarti tempur taktis disesuaikan dengan peran dan fungsinya.

OV-10s started ops in East Timor in October 1976 , annexation occured December 1975

There was a batch of 5 TNI-AU Cavaliers that were built in 1972 (correct ?) so they should have been operational.

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