Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:39 pm
Class 42-J, August 1942, Gunter Field, Boise Idaho. All flight Sergeants.
The photo is from "Dutch" Miller, who is standing in the lighter color flight suit in the center.
He flew P39s and P47s with the 345th Devilhawks, 350th FG in the MTO, ending up with a Silver Star and DFC among others.
Started as a Flight Sergeant, and came home after two+ years overseas as a Captain in Feburary 45.
The photo is from "Dutch" Miller, who is standing in the lighter color flight suit in the center.
He flew P39s and P47s with the 345th Devilhawks, 350th FG in the MTO, ending up with a Silver Star and DFC among others.
Started as a Flight Sergeant, and came home after two+ years overseas as a Captain in Feburary 45.
Flying Personnel
Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:46 pm
There were several types of flying personnel in the USAAF during WWII. These personnel were trained in different ways for different purposes. I have learned a bit about them, but need to know more. So if anybody has anything to add, please do.
At the beginning of WWII, pilots were initially trained after they received their officer training and were commissioned. I know that there were sergeant pilots prior to WWII, but know little about their origin or training. Recognizing the need for more pilots, several programs were started which did not carry the requirement for an officer's commission before learning to fly- the Civilian Pilot Training Program or CPTP and the air cadet program were two of them. The CPTP would get a student to the private pilot level of training without requiring military service- it was basically a subsidized flight school which offered low-cost aviation training. The air cadet program was an officer training program, ground school, primary and advanced school combined and set up in stages- leadership training combined with aviation training. When an air cadet graduated, he was awarded his wings and commission.
Things changed along the way during the war. At several points during the war, the AAF either was desperately short of pilots or suffocatingly overstaffed with pilot candidates. The points of desperate shortage led to programs like the sergeant pilot program, where the officer classes were eliminated and a sergeant kept his rank after becoming a pilot, and the Flight Officer program, where the number of officer classes was limited and a Flight Officer (modern equivalent Warrant Officer) rank was received upon graduation. At times of overstaffing, classes were eliminated in multiple ways, normal attrition and enhanced attrition the usual ones. However, since the washed-out students had SOME aviation training, they were recruited for other pilot programs- glider and liaison pilots were many of the personnel from this source who were failed at some point in the training program, but then went to another school for re-training. Another interesting way to earn your wings- some enlisted men were recruited as glider co-pilots during Normandy, given some crude training, and received their wings after the assault.
So you have several classes of pilots out there. You have officers who attended flight school after their commission, officers who were trained during their participation in the air cadet program, sergeants trained as pilots, flight officers trained out of pilot programs, air cadets failed out of flight school who went on to be enlisted liaison pilots and flight officer glider pilots, AND personnel who were sergeant pilots and flight officers subsequently commissioned as officers. Whew, that's confusing just writing it.
How do you tell the difference? Well, its hard as evidently some of the ranks changed their ranks during service. But here's how to tell the difference by uniform:
Sergeant pilots wore glider wings or liaison wings and sergeant stripes on their sleeves.
Flight Officers wore regular pilot wings, glider wings, and possibly liaison wings, but I have found no examples of liaison-wing-wearing flight officers in my travels. Flight officer insignia was worn on the shoulder epaulets- it looks like a rounded lieutenant bar with a blue stripe across the center of the bar.
Commissioned officers wore pilot, glider, or liaison wings. They wore the standard officer rank on their epaulets.
At the beginning of WWII, pilots were initially trained after they received their officer training and were commissioned. I know that there were sergeant pilots prior to WWII, but know little about their origin or training. Recognizing the need for more pilots, several programs were started which did not carry the requirement for an officer's commission before learning to fly- the Civilian Pilot Training Program or CPTP and the air cadet program were two of them. The CPTP would get a student to the private pilot level of training without requiring military service- it was basically a subsidized flight school which offered low-cost aviation training. The air cadet program was an officer training program, ground school, primary and advanced school combined and set up in stages- leadership training combined with aviation training. When an air cadet graduated, he was awarded his wings and commission.
Things changed along the way during the war. At several points during the war, the AAF either was desperately short of pilots or suffocatingly overstaffed with pilot candidates. The points of desperate shortage led to programs like the sergeant pilot program, where the officer classes were eliminated and a sergeant kept his rank after becoming a pilot, and the Flight Officer program, where the number of officer classes was limited and a Flight Officer (modern equivalent Warrant Officer) rank was received upon graduation. At times of overstaffing, classes were eliminated in multiple ways, normal attrition and enhanced attrition the usual ones. However, since the washed-out students had SOME aviation training, they were recruited for other pilot programs- glider and liaison pilots were many of the personnel from this source who were failed at some point in the training program, but then went to another school for re-training. Another interesting way to earn your wings- some enlisted men were recruited as glider co-pilots during Normandy, given some crude training, and received their wings after the assault.
So you have several classes of pilots out there. You have officers who attended flight school after their commission, officers who were trained during their participation in the air cadet program, sergeants trained as pilots, flight officers trained out of pilot programs, air cadets failed out of flight school who went on to be enlisted liaison pilots and flight officer glider pilots, AND personnel who were sergeant pilots and flight officers subsequently commissioned as officers. Whew, that's confusing just writing it.
How do you tell the difference? Well, its hard as evidently some of the ranks changed their ranks during service. But here's how to tell the difference by uniform:
Sergeant pilots wore glider wings or liaison wings and sergeant stripes on their sleeves.
Flight Officers wore regular pilot wings, glider wings, and possibly liaison wings, but I have found no examples of liaison-wing-wearing flight officers in my travels. Flight officer insignia was worn on the shoulder epaulets- it looks like a rounded lieutenant bar with a blue stripe across the center of the bar.
Commissioned officers wore pilot, glider, or liaison wings. They wore the standard officer rank on their epaulets.
Sergeant Pilots
Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:36 pm
You guys beat all I ever saw.The info from all of you is just great and if you have more please post away.I had not known that C.S. and Bob Hoover were NCO pilots.Learning all the time here on the WIX. Thanks.
Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:55 pm
Just because a guy was flying a L-Bird didn't mean he wasn't commisioned. The artillery spotters were artillery officers.
Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:36 pm
Obergrafeter wrote:Just because a guy was flying a L-Bird didn't mean he wasn't commisioned. The artillery spotters were artillery officers.
That's true as well. There were plenty of Lts. and some Majors and Cols. flying them as well.
Ryan
Artillery Spotters
Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:04 pm
Artillery spotters started as Artillery Officers only at first, but then enlisted men were allowed to do the course. So by the end of WWII, there were nearly equal numbers of enlisted and commissioned pilots in the field artillery units.
????
Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:14 pm
I realise that Sgt pilots just like NAPs flew them all and the Navy had at least 1 NAP ace.
So how were the pilot ratings split??
Glider pilors obviously flew only gliders. L pilots were limited to L-Birds (or trainers ect) but were there limits on type and hp???
How many different pilot rating or classifications were there?
So how were the pilot ratings split??
Glider pilors obviously flew only gliders. L pilots were limited to L-Birds (or trainers ect) but were there limits on type and hp???
How many different pilot rating or classifications were there?
Re: ????
Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:56 pm
Jack Cook wrote: L pilots were limited to L-Birds (or trainers ect) but were there limits on type and hp???
How many different pilot rating or classifications were there?
I'm not completely convinced that L-bird pilots were limited to the L-types. I'm pretty sure that some of the Liaison Squadrons also had UC-78s assigned and possibly other aircraft.
Ryan
Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:54 am
Thanks so much for the replies. A veritable wealth of information, much more than I expected. You know, you guys are alright!! 
Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:40 am
lestweforget wrote: You know, you guys are alright!!
Well, some of them might be!
Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:10 am
True, I have the feeling that some of them might be a bit on the mad side, hard to beleive some of them are even trusted with complicated airymeplanes!!! 
14 LS aircraft
Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:25 am
Ryan,
The 14th had two C-78's. Two of the sergeant pilots I spoke with had some time in the airplane as a co-pilot, but were not signed-off (rated) to fly the airplane. It is written in the unit history book that when they received the C-78's, all the squadron officers were right on it and got checked out in it. The C-78's were used to fly General Patton around regularly. All of the squadron officers were rated pilots- none of them were only Liaison Pilots.
Here is another interesting story. Tip Randolph, the recently deceased Secretary of the WWII Glider Pilots Association, was a flight officer Glider Pilot during the war. He flew a Horsa into Normandy and it was intact until a CG-4 crashed into it. He stayed with his troop carrier squadron after the war. There weren't many pilots in the squadron who were "fit" after home celebrations to go fly and pick up the mail. So he convinced the Squadron commander to let him fly the squadron hack- a Stinson L-5- to pick up the mail because he was the only sober one. He flew the L-5 around getting mail for several months. When the squadron commander realized he was unrated, or got guilty about letting an un-rated pilot fly around, he wrote a recommendation for him to go to flight school. He passed and flew F-86's in Korea and got a few kills.
The 14th had two C-78's. Two of the sergeant pilots I spoke with had some time in the airplane as a co-pilot, but were not signed-off (rated) to fly the airplane. It is written in the unit history book that when they received the C-78's, all the squadron officers were right on it and got checked out in it. The C-78's were used to fly General Patton around regularly. All of the squadron officers were rated pilots- none of them were only Liaison Pilots.
Here is another interesting story. Tip Randolph, the recently deceased Secretary of the WWII Glider Pilots Association, was a flight officer Glider Pilot during the war. He flew a Horsa into Normandy and it was intact until a CG-4 crashed into it. He stayed with his troop carrier squadron after the war. There weren't many pilots in the squadron who were "fit" after home celebrations to go fly and pick up the mail. So he convinced the Squadron commander to let him fly the squadron hack- a Stinson L-5- to pick up the mail because he was the only sober one. He flew the L-5 around getting mail for several months. When the squadron commander realized he was unrated, or got guilty about letting an un-rated pilot fly around, he wrote a recommendation for him to go to flight school. He passed and flew F-86's in Korea and got a few kills.
Re: 14 LS aircraft
Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:23 pm
Forgotten Field wrote:Ryan,
The 14th had two C-78's. Two of the sergeant pilots I spoke with had some time in the airplane as a co-pilot, but were not signed-off (rated) to fly the airplane. It is written in the unit history book that when they received the C-78's, all the squadron officers were right on it and got checked out in it. The C-78's were used to fly General Patton around regularly. All of the squadron officers were rated pilots- none of them were only Liaison Pilots.
I stand corrected - and sit back down to learn more.
Ryan
Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:38 pm
I had an uncle that flew with the 1st Air Commandos as a NCO for a couple of years. His flight records include mostly L-1 and L-5 time, but he had time as PIC in other types. They included B-24's, B-17's and C-47's. If I am reading the monthly forms correctly, he has one month that he flew 525 missions with a total flight time of less than 26 hours in L-birds.
I've got only a very small portion of the records and reports he brought home after the war and only a couple photos. His ex-wife got snotty one day during the divorce procedings and burned thousands of medium format negatives from photos he took while in Burma, India, China and North Africa.
Mom was going to scan all into electronic format for me, but hasn't been able to yet.
I've got only a very small portion of the records and reports he brought home after the war and only a couple photos. His ex-wife got snotty one day during the divorce procedings and burned thousands of medium format negatives from photos he took while in Burma, India, China and North Africa.
Mom was going to scan all into electronic format for me, but hasn't been able to yet.
Qualification of Comments
Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:14 pm
Cvairwerks,
Any chance of getting a scan of his flight records for us to look at?
Any chance of getting a scan of his flight records for us to look at?