Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:06 am
Cool. I like some of the stuff brought up here. Just because it's warfare doesn't mean we don't have real moral and ethical issues to deal with. Disobeying orders for example and the rightness or wrongness of a fight have a LOT to do with preachers, lawyers, etc... Good stuff. There was a reason that King George III called the American Revolution a "Presbyterian Parsons" rebellion.
Ryan
Ryan
Last edited by RyanShort1 on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:16 am
Think it was the George III era, not one of the Jameses, but a new quote on me.
I like to keep track of the King Jameses of England and Scotland for obvious reasons and because they went for two, not just one number at times! (VI & I and II and VII - sounds like a bookmaker's bet..) Oh, and some book they authorised.
I would hope it's good to debate and discuss...
I like to keep track of the King Jameses of England and Scotland for obvious reasons and because they went for two, not just one number at times! (VI & I and II and VII - sounds like a bookmaker's bet..) Oh, and some book they authorised.
I would hope it's good to debate and discuss...
Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:42 am
JDK,
You're right! It's King George, and it's edited. That's what I get for going to fast.
Actually, I don't personally like to "glorify" war, unless I happen to believe in the cause (at least for the most part) of those who were fighting it. WWII is somewhat marginal in certain aspects, but generally not too hard to defend from the American point of view. We certainly weren't perfect and it doesn't take too hard of a look to point out things that were wrong.
Certainly we provoked some of the actions against us, but some of the opponents were on very thin, (or non-existent) moral grounds for their actions.
(Bunny trail warning!) The moral aspects related to the war are actually why I have a problem with some of the more popular nose art. I know it existed, and have seen plenty of examples, but this too is a moral issue. Some of it is admittedly very good work from an "artists" point of view, but then you wonder about what kind of moral high ground a country could have when openly displayed on it's aircraft you have degrading images of women. That's not even discussing clearly racist / elitist artwork especially treating the Japanese like so many monkeys.
Ryan
You're right! It's King George, and it's edited. That's what I get for going to fast.
Actually, I don't personally like to "glorify" war, unless I happen to believe in the cause (at least for the most part) of those who were fighting it. WWII is somewhat marginal in certain aspects, but generally not too hard to defend from the American point of view. We certainly weren't perfect and it doesn't take too hard of a look to point out things that were wrong.
Certainly we provoked some of the actions against us, but some of the opponents were on very thin, (or non-existent) moral grounds for their actions.
(Bunny trail warning!) The moral aspects related to the war are actually why I have a problem with some of the more popular nose art. I know it existed, and have seen plenty of examples, but this too is a moral issue. Some of it is admittedly very good work from an "artists" point of view, but then you wonder about what kind of moral high ground a country could have when openly displayed on it's aircraft you have degrading images of women. That's not even discussing clearly racist / elitist artwork especially treating the Japanese like so many monkeys.
Ryan
Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:32 am
JDK wrote:This is no criticism of the US or the US military per se, all armies have examples of poor to appalling conduct; while even the military of organisations such as Fascist Italy and Germany have very moral behaviour by some soldiers.
The issue was made stark at Nuremberg in 1945-6, giving us today the catchphrase anti-excuse 'I was only following orders'.
That is specificially addressed -- that "only following orders" is NOT AN ACCEPTABLE EXCUSE when the orders are illegal and unlawful. In the military, this is actually a lot more difficult than it seems; we are taught to do what we're told, and often have an immense amount of trust in our superiors. Disobeying an order is a big deal, and even if you are "right", you will probably have a difficult time in the short term after doing such a thing.
Be that as it may, everyone is educated on this responsibility. Weather or not each individual chooses to internalize that information is up to them -- but "the system" fully grasps the concept.
With respect to the conduct of US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, I find the issue one that is difficult to understand in the court of public opinion.
There have certainly been instances where US forces have conducted themselves in a less than honorable fashion.
....however....
It really seems that, in the media and court of public opinion (which is obviously heavily influenced by the media) US forces are held up to scrutiny that is more nit-picky than other military forces. Behavior that is commonplace in other militaries is called barbaric when US forces are involved.
Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:57 am
I found this an interesting and quite rational discussion.
West-Front, however, obviously did not, since he deleted his OP in an effort to make it not make sense.
Google's cache feature comes in handy sometimes. For later readers of this thread, here is the original original post that is the subject of this discussion.
August
It is the VETERAN , not the preacher,
who has given us freedom of religion.
It is the VETERAN , not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the VETERAN , not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the VETERAN , not the campus organizer,
who has given us freedom to assemble.
It is the VETERAN , not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the VETERAN , not the politician,
Who has given us the right to vote.
It is the VETERAN who salutes the Flag,
It is the VETERAN who serves under the Flag,
ETERNAL REST GRANT THEM O LORD, AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT SHINE UPON THEM.
West-Front, however, obviously did not, since he deleted his OP in an effort to make it not make sense.
Google's cache feature comes in handy sometimes. For later readers of this thread, here is the original original post that is the subject of this discussion.
August
It is the VETERAN , not the preacher,
who has given us freedom of religion.
It is the VETERAN , not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the VETERAN , not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the VETERAN , not the campus organizer,
who has given us freedom to assemble.
It is the VETERAN , not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the VETERAN , not the politician,
Who has given us the right to vote.
It is the VETERAN who salutes the Flag,
It is the VETERAN who serves under the Flag,
ETERNAL REST GRANT THEM O LORD, AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT SHINE UPON THEM.
Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:53 pm
More black humour from Iwo Jima
Tell it to the Marines - Iwo Jima Military defenses were a closely guarded military secret as early as 1937, as indicated by an order which was conspicuously promulgated on this wooden tablet. February 1945 - Iwo Jima
Recruiting service on Iwo Jima has been established. This man is referred to as an "old salt" in the Corps and is just completing 19 years of continuous service and will re-enlist in the near future. Iwo Jima
"Iwo Jima Trading Post: Bullets to Biscuits," the sign reads and 25th Division Marines arrange a "Business deal" over one can of beans. These men helped win the battle of supply which had much to do with the taking of Iwo Jima.
Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:54 pm
I dunno why west-front couldn't stand by his words, and has to back-pedal so badly.
Sad.
Sad.
Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:06 pm
Thanks Randy, good points.
I'm not as involved at either end of that discussion as you are obviously, but leaving aside factors (relative size and visibility of US forces both when operating alone or with other countries these days, media structures, etc.) I simply see that as part of the non-negotiable price of democratic freedoms. If the military aren't under the microscope, then there are problems that are ignored. The development of the cases of Mai Lai and Abu Ghirab show that it's hard to bring responsibility home to those who need to be removed and sanctioned, but it can happen - with a lot of career collateral damage for solders and the magically vanishing politicians.
But it is an absolute - the military - any military - is not fit to police itself.
The US military, like most democratic country's militaries is an arm of the government, and the government, for all the noise made, is the choice of the people. If they lose their real public support, they've lost their mandate and need to act differently.
It's tough, it's messy, but it's at least facing the right direction.
Just my view!
Randy Haskin wrote:It really seems that, in the media and court of public opinion (which is obviously heavily influenced by the media) US forces are held up to scrutiny that is more nit-picky than other military forces. Behavior that is commonplace in other militaries is called barbaric when US forces are involved.
I'm not as involved at either end of that discussion as you are obviously, but leaving aside factors (relative size and visibility of US forces both when operating alone or with other countries these days, media structures, etc.) I simply see that as part of the non-negotiable price of democratic freedoms. If the military aren't under the microscope, then there are problems that are ignored. The development of the cases of Mai Lai and Abu Ghirab show that it's hard to bring responsibility home to those who need to be removed and sanctioned, but it can happen - with a lot of career collateral damage for solders and the magically vanishing politicians.
But it is an absolute - the military - any military - is not fit to police itself.
The US military, like most democratic country's militaries is an arm of the government, and the government, for all the noise made, is the choice of the people. If they lose their real public support, they've lost their mandate and need to act differently.
It's tough, it's messy, but it's at least facing the right direction.
Just my view!
Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:30 pm
Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:56 pm
JDK wrote:The US military, like most democratic country's militaries is an arm of the government, and the government, for all the noise made, is the choice of the people. If they lose their real public support, they've lost their mandate and need to act differently.
Completely valid point and one that I wholesale agree with,
Frustrating, however, being sometimes on the other end of it!
Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:10 am
Randy Haskin wrote:Frustrating, however, being sometimes on the other end of it!
I should imagine that's the most polite term you could use!
And yes, I don't envy you that.
The vast majority of the serving military (and veterans) are contentious people generally doing their best in a tough job, IMHO, often with little thanks and less understanding from the public.
And, IMHO, FWIW, in most democratic countries the standards an officer is held to (for instance) is a strong and often effective and worthwhile 'code' with no direct equivalent in civilian life.
Regards,
Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:15 am
JDK wrote:I dunno why west-front couldn't stand by his words, and has to back-pedal so badly.
Sad.
My guess is that he "cannot handle the truth" that they are not words of wisdom, as he thought we would unquestioningly agree.
His new strategy with the posting of random photos appears to be some sort of dilution approach to vandalizing serious discussion.
Score on the mature-o-meter decreases by the hour.
August
Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:23 pm
k5083 wrote:My guess is that he "cannot handle the truth" that they are not words of wisdom, as he thought we would unquestioningly agree.His new strategy with the posting of random photos appears to be some sort of dilution approach to vandalizing serious discussion.Score on the mature-o-meter decreases by the hour.AugustJDK wrote:I dunno why west-front couldn't stand by his words, and has to back-pedal so badly.Sad.
PM sent.