RAAF Vengeances

[JDK]

Just been organising some photos from the RAAF Museum Archives of RAAF Vengeance dive bombers for a chap in the UK, and I thought I'd share a few of the photos here.

[RyanShort1]

There's just something about that aircraft... I'd take one.

Ryan

[JDK]

They do have a certain something about them, don't they?

But the day of the dedicated dive-bomber was over, really by the time they got to service, even if the Air Forces knew what to do with dive bombers or wanted them. AFAIK, the USN were the only allied organisation to use dive-bombers effectively.

Here's a shot I posted before (I've not forgotten your request Mgawa!) and the companion picture. Lots of great detail for modellers and detail enthusiasts.





And fresh, ready for service.

Vengeance located off Williamstown and carrying the RAAF serial number A27-505 as a Vultee A-35B-VN Vengeance Mk. IV aircraft. It was given the USAAF serial number 41-31303 before being delivered to the RAAF on December 24, 1943. Between March and June 1944 this aircraft served with the 25 Squadron. After delivery to the Central Flying School based at Point Cook on November 29, 1945 the aircraft was modified to a target-tug aircraft for use by the Flying School. Some 3 months later on March 6, 1946 the Vengeance crashed into the sea off Williamstown due to an engine failure probably due to a loss of oil pressure.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~maav/vultee.htm

Last edited by west-front on Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

[JDK]

Good stuff, WestFront, and Steve is after gunner details, so useful too.

Thanks!

[JDK]

Showing the rough and ready approach to white tails...

(Damaged print)

[JDK]

Making it go. Apparently it was a bit of a maintenance hog.



Young men.

[Michel Lemieux]

So with all the parts & semi-complete airframe left down under....what are the chances of seeing a flyer one day

[retroaviation]

Vengeance located off Williamstown and carrying the RAAF serial number A27-505 as a Vultee A-35B-VN Vengeance Mk. IV aircraft. It was given the USAAF serial number 41-31303 before being delivered to the RAAF on December 24, 1943. Between March and June 1944 this aircraft served with the 25 Squadron. After delivery to the Central Flying School based at Point Cook on November 29, 1945 the aircraft was modified to a target-tug aircraft for use by the Flying School. Some 3 months later on March 6, 1946 the Vengeance crashed into the sea off Williamstown due to an engine failure probably due to a loss of oil pressure.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~maav/vultee.htm

Perhaps I read the link wrong, but it sounded as if that Vengeance mentioned is relatively close to the shore and could be a candidate for recovery. What are the rules Down Under for such a chore like that? Is it just doomed to stay there?

Gary

[JDK]

Perhaps I read the link wrong, but it sounded as if that Vengeance mentioned is relatively close to the shore and could be a candidate for recovery. What are the rules Down Under for such a chore like that? Is it just doomed to stay there?

I don't think it's still there - that's Port Philip Bay - busy, shipping channels or shallow - and salt.

So with all the parts & semi-complete airframe left down under....what are the chances of seeing a flyer one day

The Camden museum machine is, I understand, essentially complete. But the collection is unlikely to ever release it (fair enough).

Precision Aerospace at Wangaratta has a collection of hulk fuselages and wings, and a substantial parts holding. I understand that the intent is to rebuild maybe a couple - but that's a way down the track after the P-series series has been done, I suspect.

[Michel Lemieux]

but that's a way down the track after the P-series series has been done, I suspect.

James......more basic

Will I be 80 when done Me mom told me I only had one life

BTW I am 43 HEHE

[Second Air Force]

Michel,

There are some photos of the Murray Griffith Vengeance collection here:
http://rides.webshots.com/album/252490586ebGLUk

It's gonna take some time to get one flying, but I'd love to see it happen. I've always liked that airplane, especially in the RAAF combat camouflage scheme.

[Mgawa]

Very good material!!!

[JDK]

but that's a way down the track after the P-series series has been done, I suspect.

James......more basic

Will I be 80 when done

I'd like to see one fly, too, but it's not a precondition of my life insurance. I'm not going to hold my breath. I'm also counting on a Kingfisher or two from Wang first.

[Mark_Pilkington]

retroaviation wrote:
Perhaps I read the link wrong, but it sounded as if that Vengeance mentioned is relatively close to the shore and could be a candidate for recovery. What are the rules Down Under for such a chore like that? Is it just doomed to stay there?

JDK wrote: I don't think it's still there - that's Port Philip Bay - busy, shipping channels or shallow - and salt.

The Williamstown Vengeance A27-505 crashed in 1946 and does still exist, it isnt far off shore and in relatively shallow water of 30 feet or 10M, but has broken up over time due to earlier recovery attempts and will continue to disolve into the sea. It was reported in various dive newsletters when it was re-discovered in 1989, it is in very shallow water, unlikely to be worth recovery for any purpose, and would require Heritage Victoria permission as it is effectively a "ship wreck" in terms of Victorian law, despite it being an aircraft.

http://adf-serials.com/

A27-505 41-31303 ? A-35B-VN
Mk.4 Ditched 06/03/46 Fort Gelibrand, after getting into trouble during a target towing flight. Crew; W/O F.O. Knudson (Pilot) and W/O L.R. Wastell. W/O F.O. Knudson was admitted to hospital with minor head injuries but was later ok. The aircraft is still off Williamstown VIC in 10 metres of water and a recognised diving site.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:1tFMiwAEjOcJ:www.museum.wa.gov.au/collections/maritime/march/fallenangels/vengeance/vengeance.doc+RAAF+vultee+Vengeance+dive&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

Site features
The site consists of the centre fuselage with the two wings; the fuselage doesn’t extend much beyond the wings in either direction. The tail and engine are disconnected from the main body. The engine has been located 200 metres away from the main site with what looks like the frame of the rudder nearby. The engine has only been dived once, it is half buried in mud, the propeller blades appear to be broken off with just the boss showing. The main tail section has yet to be located and could have extensive damage as this area had been dredged years ago for scallops.

The end of the starboard wing is missing while the end of the port wing is partially broken away. The plane would appear to have been stripped of all instruments and fittings. Local oral history has it that the plane was almost completely stripped by residents the day after the accident.

The underwater visibility on the site would rarely exceed 2 metres; though in winter this could improve by a metre or more. The site makes a nice little dive; it is identifiable as a plane. The poor visibility does not detract from the dive as the wreck, being such a small site is enhanced by it. The limited visibility forces the diver to look closer and so a longer time can be spent exploring the site with the result that the site has more of a mystery to it with the limited vision.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~maav/vultee.htm

In July 1989 my brother Colin and I were directed to a strange anomaly on the seabed off Williamstown by Phillip McCubbin, a local professional fisherman. The anomaly showed up on his sidescan sonar and depth sounder. I went down first to investigate, half expecting to find another piece of the 'Kakariki'. I was more than a bit surprised when I noticed that this piece of wreckage had wings. This turned out to be the remains of a Vultee Vengeance dive bomber which crashed into the water off Williamstown in March 1946. The site was subsequently reported to the Victorian Maritime Heritage Unit.

what is left: there are two wings and part of the centre fuselage. The tail and engine are missing from the plane. The engine has since been found a few hundred metres away. The ends of the propeller are broken off and the engine is half buried in the mud bottom.
One end of the right wing is missing and the end of the left wing is almost broken off. The plane seems to have been stripped of anything of value before being dumped as there are no instruments or seats. The visibility on the plane would rarely exceed two metres and once a few divers are down it is even less.

IDENTIFICATION OF THE SITE
I didn't think at the time of finding the plane that it would prove such a difficult task to find out what it was. Who could forget a plane crashing? After not being able to identify the craft, it was decided to measure and then draw up a site plan to see if this might help in some way. At least I would have the dimensions of the aircraft.

To make the plan, a team from the MAAV went out to the site, and using tape measures and an underwater slate, we were able to obtain enough measurements for a site plan to be drawn up.

A friend photocopied the technical details of the plane and gave me a copy. Using this information I was able to identify the plane as being a Vultee Vengeance by the length and the shape of the wings.

RECOMMENDATION
Phillip McCubbin located what appeared to be the missing engine in May 1994 and kindly took me out to have a look at it not long after. If the engine could be raised and placed at the front of the plane where it belongs the overall picture of the wreck would improve and most of the craft would then be in one spot. I think that the MAAV could achieve this objective. All that has to be found then is the tail which Phillip will more than likely find in the future

There are a number of wrecks in Port Philip Bay including aircraft dumped in a spoil ground after WW2, in the 1970's the RAAF Museum had a Seagull V main wheel that had been torn off the dumped aircraft by a scallop fishing boat, the remainder of the aircraft was left in situ and remains there today, it has reported a number of aircraft were dumped on the spoil ground, and many other aircraft crashed into the bay and were not recovered in similar circumstances to the Vengeance.


As confirmed by James already, the Camden airframe is complete and original, but unlikely to be ever sold or flown, and certainly would be blocked from leaving Australia. The Precision Aerospace parts consist of two centre fuselages and substational other parts recovered in WA in the 1980's (A27-247 & another unidentified) and acquired from Whale World in the early 2000's.

Wings and other parts survive in PNG and it would seem at least 1 and perhaps 2 long term flying projects may be possible from the Wangaratta parts, and are the only other likely future survivors beyond the complete Camden Example, A27-99.

http://www.camdenmuseumofaviation.com.au/

regards

Mark Pilkingon