How safe are airshows - would the FAA allow this ?
Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:24 am
Here some amazing RNZAF flying at a airshow - a RNZAF air force ( whats left of their air to air and fighter aircraft) 757 going very fast and near vertical climb out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYZOByow ... re=related
Would the FAA allow this to happen in the US?
Happens in NZ and Australia tho
Here a more sedate but still military 727
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXXA-pRI ... re=related
I dont recall other military throwing their transports around like the Kiwis seems to do... is it something just that happens not overseas?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYZOByow ... re=related
Would the FAA allow this to happen in the US?
Happens in NZ and Australia tho
Here a more sedate but still military 727
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXXA-pRI ... re=related
I dont recall other military throwing their transports around like the Kiwis seems to do... is it something just that happens not overseas?
Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:38 am
I didn't see anything unsafe or reckless about either maneuver. Straight and level in front of the crowd. Because of the speed, they only have to be 500 ft from the crowd at the closest point.
As long as the aircraft had only the min crew on board, the FAA wouldn't have an issue with this.
As long as the aircraft had only the min crew on board, the FAA wouldn't have an issue with this.
Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:46 am
I can't see the video right now. The FAA can and will dictate to foriegn air show teams how they can perform here in the US. For example the maneuver that went wrong for Frecce Tricolori some years ago in Germany was not allowed when they performed in the US precisely because if something went wrong there was a likelihood of aircraft or wreckage carrying into the crowd.
I don't know what criteria the FAA would use to judge an airshow act other than safety for the bystanders and operation of the aircraft within its established limits. Pilots have exceeded aircraft limits and had structural failures in front of crowds with other than aerobatic category aircraft. ( I know that plenty of aerobatic aircraft have had structural failures to but I think that usually they were due to something other than exceeding design limits.)
I don't know what criteria the FAA would use to judge an airshow act other than safety for the bystanders and operation of the aircraft within its established limits. Pilots have exceeded aircraft limits and had structural failures in front of crowds with other than aerobatic category aircraft. ( I know that plenty of aerobatic aircraft have had structural failures to but I think that usually they were due to something other than exceeding design limits.)
Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:48 am
The RNZAF 757 display was undertaken at an IWM Duxford show some years ago, obviously cleared by the local display authority in the UK. Impressive display. The South African Airlines 747 was pretty impressive there too.
National-Enquirer hysteria-level headlines aren't needed here.
National-Enquirer hysteria-level headlines aren't needed here.
Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:16 am
The 757 going near vertical is impressive! What maneuver do they do at the top to get our of it? The video stops before they run out of speed going up, and I am pretty sure they don't do a hammerhead or a tailslide with those babies!!! 
Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:54 am
[ Deleted ]
Last edited by DoraNineFan on Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:01 am
Nothing remarkable about the hi-speed pass. That's simple and safe, since it never points at the crowd.
The trouble with his pull-up isn't safety, it's visibility. If you go fast, you have to pull heavy G to stay close, and that you can't do in a transport. So, as in the film, you need a telescopic lens to keep him in sight, and the impressive part of his display is too far away to see.
Where a transport shines is sheer power. A 767, empty, with 45 minutes fuel, is a tremendous performer. Much more capable of verticle than most people think. Yet with all the flap it has, it can turn quite tight. And it handles briskly.
It'd be fun to work out a max-performance, min-risk show in one.
Dave
The trouble with his pull-up isn't safety, it's visibility. If you go fast, you have to pull heavy G to stay close, and that you can't do in a transport. So, as in the film, you need a telescopic lens to keep him in sight, and the impressive part of his display is too far away to see.
Where a transport shines is sheer power. A 767, empty, with 45 minutes fuel, is a tremendous performer. Much more capable of verticle than most people think. Yet with all the flap it has, it can turn quite tight. And it handles briskly.
It'd be fun to work out a max-performance, min-risk show in one.
Dave
I'd say yes except for the climb out...
Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:06 am
it would depend on the surrounding area, is it populated...buildings in the area etc. IE if you flew from west to east at Wendover ut I doubt anyone would care at all! 
Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:02 pm
When the package nazis (UPS) first got 757PF's, they were operated by RYAN AIR (no, not the one that wants to install 'pay as you go' lavs). TRAMCO @ KPAE was doing the checks for UPS (still do but now it's another company). The RYAN captains would love to show off by doing that same maneuver from rotation to about 4000 ft, then simply push over and continue. Empty, a 757 freighter has great power to weight ratios, we'd listen to hear the outflow valve pop open to dump the overpressurizing caused by the steep climb.
Doing what we called 'runway burners' was pretty common @ TRAMCO too. The customer crews were always up for a 'photo pass' down KPAE and I was on many of them, no issues, no problems, just a real eyefull zipping down the runway @ about gear height +2 ft @ 245 kts. on the flight deck.
In fact, last year Cathay Pacific fired a senior captain for doing a 'burner' which was a traditional 'thanks guys and gals' upon delivery because there were some elected weenies aboard who wanted to empty their bladders over this 'very dangerous exhibition' and the upper management @ Swire caved in, several computers within Boeing have that photo as screen savers and the aircraft is about 75 feet off the runway which has wide open aproaches on both ends.
Doing what we called 'runway burners' was pretty common @ TRAMCO too. The customer crews were always up for a 'photo pass' down KPAE and I was on many of them, no issues, no problems, just a real eyefull zipping down the runway @ about gear height +2 ft @ 245 kts. on the flight deck.
In fact, last year Cathay Pacific fired a senior captain for doing a 'burner' which was a traditional 'thanks guys and gals' upon delivery because there were some elected weenies aboard who wanted to empty their bladders over this 'very dangerous exhibition' and the upper management @ Swire caved in, several computers within Boeing have that photo as screen savers and the aircraft is about 75 feet off the runway which has wide open aproaches on both ends.
Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:38 pm
I dont recall other military throwing their transports around like the Kiwis seems to do... is it something just that happens not overseas?
The USAF does on hell of a job throwing around their C17's around, very impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1gnavYK ... annel_page
Dave C
Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:58 pm
The Inspector wrote:In fact, last year Cathay Pacific fired a senior captain for doing a 'burner' which was a traditional 'thanks guys and gals' upon delivery because there were some elected weenies aboard who wanted to empty their bladders over this 'very dangerous exhibition' and the upper management @ Swire caved in, several computers within Boeing have that photo as screen savers and the aircraft is about 75 feet off the runway which has wide open aproaches on both ends.
You mean this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1ijLu2HzvI
Re: How safe are airshows - would the FAA allow this ?
Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:46 pm
flyingheritage wrote:Here some amazing RNZAF flying at a airshow - a RNZAF air force ( whats left of their air to air and fighter aircraft) 757 going very fast and near vertical climb out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYZOByow ... re=related
Would the FAA allow this to happen in the US?
Happens in NZ and Australia tho
Here a more sedate but still military 727
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXXA-pRI ... re=related
I dont recall other military throwing their transports around like the Kiwis seems to do... is it something just that happens not overseas?
Show line is a category situation determined by airspeed of the performing aircraft. In the US, this demo would most likely require a 1500' line from the crowd.
The maneuver looks well done and well within the aircraft's design parameters. I'd say he's not over 4g's in the pull.
Getting out of a climb like that in a bird that size could be interesting. In a fighter, you simply do a half roll and pull down to the horizon. The alternative of course is a push over which in a bird that size could easily go to 0 g. Not quite sure how they recover to level flight for this demo but I'd guess he just let the airspeed dissipate down to a low roar then let it ease on down probably to a bit nose low then back to level flight.
As for the FAA; I see no particular safety issues with a pass like the one you have shown.
Dudley Henriques
Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:56 pm
Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:34 am
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Deleted (by me, not the mods)
Deleted (by me, not the mods)
Last edited by Mark_Pilkington on Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:56 am
BLR-
Thats the one, sure looks like the reason to fire a senior Captain who was pretty much following a tradition and at a normal altitude for a practice missed approach but seems to have 'upset' some Hong Kong Officials invited to fly home from Everett-and Swire weenied out and gave the Officials a serious tongue bath over the incident.
Thats the one, sure looks like the reason to fire a senior Captain who was pretty much following a tradition and at a normal altitude for a practice missed approach but seems to have 'upset' some Hong Kong Officials invited to fly home from Everett-and Swire weenied out and gave the Officials a serious tongue bath over the incident.