Questions for the B-17 guys

Can a B-17 ground loop? and how easy or difficult is it? Is there a big difference in handling conditions with large multi-engine tail draggers than there is with smaller single engine types? Do you maneuver with off-setting engine power to steer? Would it be something similar to steering a large boat where you would use off-setting power per engine?

M

[Ztex]

You betcha a B-17 can ground loop!

It's a tail dragger with a double wide barn door out back. The B-17 crew is constantly at work on the ground. The legs get a real workout. They do use "offset" power to taxi.

We'll see if Larry Kraus or Pat will chime in here...Any other B-17 pilots on the board?

Last edited by Ztex on Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

[warbird1]

We'll see if Larry Krause or Pat will chime in here...Any other B-17 pilots on the board?

Don't forget Jim H. is checked out in the B-17 as well. I'm not sure, but Taigh Ramey might be also.

[V1VRV2]

I've never been really close to going around, but I can say that It can be a real workout sometimes, especially with large gust factors. We always three-point the airplane (for both take off and landing) and the locking tailwheel helps considerably. For really significant X-winds, while in the three point attitute, don't be afraid to touch down one main wheel first -on the upwind side - Hoover style. With landing ref speed in the 95-100 knot range (depending on weight and temp) and at weights of 45-55K, it' really does fly like a 4 engine Cub, slips and all.
Rob Gillman

[John Dupre]

I heard at an air show once that it is possible to back up a B-17 by setting the brakes on one side and running up the engines on the other side. This has the effect of swinging one wing ahead and the other back. Then you reverse the sequence and the airplane ends up further back than when it started. Can't imagine that the technique was ever used much.

[V1VRV2]

Slightly off topic, but it is true that the technique can be used in a pinch.. Great way to win bar bets. I have done it ONCE, as a last resort. It takes LARGE amounts of power and is he// on the pivoting gear leg. We don't however do it now. That's why they invented tow bars.
Rob G

[V1VRV2]

John, after reading your post again, I need to clarify the technique, For example to move the RIGHT wing aft, you need to hold the LEFT brake and subsequently run up #1 engine. Stop. Reverse the process and move the left wing back. Repeat. As I said, can be done, but tough on the old girl.
Rob G.

[leo]

Back in (79?) "Sentimental Journey" did the Tora routine at the Reno Air Races. Upon landing, the pilot (Jim Orton as I remember) would stop in front of the crowd, add power and lift the tail to bow. Must have been interesting balancing such a big plane!

[warbird1]

I've never been really close to going around, but I can say that It can be a real workout sometimes, especially with large gust factors. We always three-point the airplane (for both take off and landing) and the locking tailwheel helps considerably. For really significant X-winds, while in the three point attitute, don't be afraid to touch down one main wheel first -on the upwind side - Hoover style. With landing ref speed in the 95-100 knot range (depending on weight and temp) and at weights of 45-55K, it' really does fly like a 4 engine Cub, slips and all.
Rob Gillman

Excellent, thanks for the information! Just curious, which B-17 do you fly? From your location, it sounds like you might be involved with the "Movie Memphis Belle".

[Ztex]

We'll see if Larry Krause or Pat will chime in here...Any other B-17 pilots on the board?

Don't forget Jim H. is checked out in the B-17 as well. I'm not sure, but Taigh Ramey might be also.

I thought Jim just flew the "ugly" airplane

So we have Larry, Pat, Jim, Taigh, and now Rob as B-17 flyers on WIX!

Way cool!

I was in the cockpit of Chuckie one day when we landed in a fair cross wind...as they say...it was all azz holes and elbows! They earned their strips that day.

[Steve S]

Do you maneuver with off-setting engine power to steer?
M

Not a pilot but have spent some time on the flight deck of Thunderbird as CC. Yes you can and do use the throttles in addition to the breaks. It seems to be a matter of preference and personal style among the various pilots I have flown with. They all seem to have there own techniques which are basically the same with small variation.

Steve S

[JimH]

yep...its possible to groundloop it...it's a taildragger. We wheel land the airplane, never 3 point...wayy too hard on the tail gear assembly. Like any airplane, tailwheel or not, in crosswinds you use plenty of aileron, throttle, and speed as required.

jim

[warbird1]

We always three-point the airplane (for both take off and landing) and the locking tailwheel helps considerably.

We wheel land the airplane, never 3 point...wayy too hard on the tail gear assembly.

You two B-17 pilots directly contradict each other. I wonder why such a difference in philosophy in landing/takeoffs?

[JimH]

Everybody has thier own technique...either one works...tailwheel tires, well anything associated with the tailwheel area is getting hard to come by so we wheel it on...fly the tail down.

jim

[V1VRV2]

I'm glad Neon checked in. Different operations, different aircraft. Even though we all strive for standard operating procedures, every operation dictates what is the safest, most economically feasable operation. When I first began my B-17 ops - it was from a 3,200' grass runway, wet in the spring and fall. It became the standard. Three point, full stall langings were imperitive. You had to hit the numbers, at ref speed or GO AROUND. Simple. I actually flew with CF back in the day when 909 was sidelided and adatped to their SOPs. Even back then, we three pointed all landings, but I don't dispute what Jim and 909 do today. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most operations are currently operated from some fairly significantly long, wide concrete runways. The Colling's Foundation flight operations have to be held as the gold standard of bomber operations, given their track record of longevity. I have to submit, done properly, that three point landings in a B-17 is considered as proper technique with no significant difference in routine wear and subsequent maintentance.
Rob