Warbird Information Exchange

My statement was not intended to be taken literally as I was not referring to any particular restoration. My point was intended to be one of logic- the longer these planes stay underwater and are subjected to further deterioration, the less of the aircraft is there (or is restorable), hence an increased restoration cost.



Yes, but would it have been better for it to remain in the remote tundra in Russia? Then virtually nobody would have seen it, not even Paul Allen- the situation with the lake/ocean birds now.

So what if they get exported! Why deprive people in other coutries from seeing these aircraft? Should we send all the Zeroes back to Japan and all the Spitfires back to the UK? There is a natural ebb and tide as these aircraft change hands among collectors.



I've never been there, nor have I been to any of the Collings Foundation home bases. But I have seen both the Collings B-17 and B-24. They came to an airport near me. How many people see the Collings aircraft in one year? Probably 500,000 in one week at Oshkosh?? The Planes of Fame tour allows those around the country to see a P-38, a P-40, and an FG-1D that they normally would never get to see. I saw the EAA B-17 flying from Long Beach airport last month while I was walking across the street at work. Can't see the NMNA from there...

The point is that the NMNA is GENERALLY available to poeple only in the region, and I'll bet that the NMNA is not a primary venue to draw tourists to Florida. Maybe it is a good location for the NMNA, but I doubt that people go there and then decide, "What the heck! Since we are at the NMNA, we might as well go see Mickey!"



I apologize if I have sounded argumentative- that was not my intent. I am very passionate about this topic, as are you and Rob. I think that it is important to get all the points talked out so that a united front can be formed to change the policy into what we want.

HI I HAVE HAD FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH NAVY POLICY!FIRST MR OWEN YOU HAVE SENT SEVERAL REPLYS SUPPORTING NAVAL POLICY ON PRESEVATION OF HISTORIC A/C.THIS POLICY SHOULD BE CALLED THE DESTUCTION OF HISTORIC NAVAL A/C.THEIR POLICY IS MORE DIRECTED TO LOSS ,DESTRUCTION,SALE FOR SCRAP,KEEP THEM FROM THE PEOPLE WHO SPEND A LARGE PART OF THERE INCOME,LIFE AND SKILLS TO RETURN THESE LOST BIRDS TO THE PUBLIC EYES,ALL IN THE NAME OF PROTECTION OF HISTORIC ARTIFACTS!!!!ANY AVIATION MUSEUM IS AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED IS FANTASTIC,IT GIVES ALL OF US THE CHANCE TO SEE PRESERVED ARTFACTS OF TIME GONE BY!YOU SEEM TO SUPPORT THE NAVYS STAND ON THE HORDING AIR FRAMES FOR THE CONTINUED DECAY OF THEIR CONDITION RATHER THAN SELL THEM AND RAISE MONEY FOR THERE OWN IMPROVEMENT.IF A PERSON SPENDS SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR A DERILECT AIRFRAME CHANCES ARE THAT IT WILL BE RESTORED TO LIKE NEW CONDITION AND BE PROUDLY DISPLAYED FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS NOT JUST RAT HOLED FOR PRESERVATIONS SAKE!!WHY WERE SEVRAL NAVY WW2 A/C SCRAPED AT BARBERS POINT? HOW MANY GUYS WOULD HAVE PAYED BIG MONEY FOR THE F6F HELLCAT,F4F WILDCAT,TBF,SB2CS,ANDLOTS OF PARTS THAT WERE ALL SOLD FOR SCRAP,SHREADED AND SENT TO JAPAN AS RECYCLED ALUMINUM?IS THIS THE TYPE OF PRESEVATION THAT WE AS TAX PAYER ARE WILLING TO SUPPORT BY THE PEOPLE THAT ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT PRESERVING OUR NAVAL HISTORY?THIS ALL HAPPENED JUST A FEW SHORT YEARS AGO,IM LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE GOTTEN THE SB2C-1A WHICH WAS THE ONLY AIRFRAME TO EXCAPE THE SCRAP MAN WHICH WILL SOON BE RESTORED TO AIR WORTHY CONDITION!!!THE NAVY SPENT OVER $100,000.00 TRYING TO KEEP THE A-25 WE RECOVERED FROM LAKE WASHINGTON WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN SCRAPED,SO A PRIVATE PERSON COULDNT OWN IT!!ITS NOW ALMOST TOTALLY RESTORED AND ON ITS WAY TO THE U.S. AIR FORCE MUSEUM, THEY WILL HAVE A SB2C ON DISPLAY, THE NAVAL MUSEUM NOW DOES NOT HAVE A SB2C ON DISPLAY !! IS THIS THE PRESERVATION POLICY THAT WE AS THE GENERAL PUBLIC WANT FOR THE FUTURE OF ALL THE NAVAL A/C THAT STILL REMAIN OUT THERE WAITING TO BE RECOVERED?TAKE THE TIME TO PUT YOUR FEELINGS IN PRINT AND SEND THEM TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN ,NAVAL HISTORY CENTER OR WHOM EVER YOU THINK CAN MAKE A POSITIVE CHANGE FOR THE RECOVERY RESTORATION AND PRESEVATION OF ALL OF OUR NAVAL HISTORY, THIS IS OUR HISTORY NOT JUST A FEW WHO REALLY DONT CARE AS LONG AS GUYS LIKE ME ,LEX, ECT HAVE THE GUTS TO TRY TO SAVE WHAT WE CAN, STILL HAVE OUR HANDS TIED!!THIS IS OUR CHILDERNS FUTURE NOT JUST THE FOLKS THAT ARE TRYING THERE BEST TO DENY THEM THE CHANCE TO SEE THESE ARTFACTS RESTORED TO A DISPLAYABLE CONDITION THANKS MIKE

Thank you, Mike R., for the response from one who's been in the trenches against the NMNA and NHC!

I'm curious. Now that the NMNA is Helldiverless, do they contact you on any kind of basis to "swing a deal" (I understand completely if you're not comfortable divulging that kind of information)?

I know I speak for many on this board by saying how much I admire your work. Will you be heading this way for OSH? I'm sure quite a few would find it a privilege to buy you a beer (or ice tea, or whatever you prefer pounding the ramp).

Dan

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

DITO mike
telecon was great the other day... lets keep in touch more often...lets work on how we can help each other on the next project and both end up with something..

It looks like TIGHAR is getting invloved with the Marshall Island TBD's...
http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Devastat ... escrip.htm

Hehe... I love this little quote on their website...

If the Devastators current condition is any clue to the contents of said regulations then I'd have to say that said regulations need to be changed. Guess TIGHAR must be happy with them.

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Lemme' guess: TIGHAR is going to announce that in the back seat of one of the TBD's they found Amelia Earhart's shoe.

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Now Colonel; are you planning on using boxing gloves, or will you be going straight for the folding chair?

Hi fellas,
I'm back from spending some time commemorating the Battle
of Midway. I went to Midway Night over in JAX and had a really
good time. Today I called a list of guys who flew at Midway. I
do this every year around June 4 to say thanks. I was saddend
to learn the VF-3's Tom Cheek died June 3. Stu Matson died June
2. We are loosing these guys at an ever increasing rate. So if
you get the chance tell one of these guys "Thanks!".

Let me begin by admitting I was wrong about the Zero having
been worked on by Black Shadow. As Rob stated it's right there
in the museum web site.

I can't speak to the incident of aircraft being scrapped off Barber's
Point. I don't have any direct knowledge of it. I would say that
I cannot imagine Raz being part of scrapping something like an
SBD. I've seen him send to get things much less historic like the
remains of several Brewster Bucaneers. I know that for decades
the USN ignored crashed or wrecked birds. Often things were
buldozed into the woods or burried in a trench. I know that he
has saved many planes that were dilapidated gate guards,
children's playground toys, and the like for preservation and display. Further I know that at the end of the war all the ser-
vices scrapped their aerial fleets en masse. Most were smelted
down, others were pushed overboard, still others were just
left where they were. I don't doubt that the navy scrapped those
birds off Barber's Point but I would be surprised if Raz had anything to do with it.

As to attendance numbers I did contact Sara Wilson with Fantasy
of Flight in Polk City. Exact figures are proprietary info but she
did tell me they have between 70,000 and 90,000 a year. That
pales in comaprison with NMNA at just under a million a year. Of
course that in turn pales in comparison with Disney. While I agree
that there are not a lot of folks who decide to visit Disney after
they came to FL to see NMNA I would still rate it as much more than a regional attraction.

Yes I do prefer warbirds such as the birdcage Corsair and the
P-40B/C to remain in this country. Prejudice? Probably. But
I want MY grandson to be able to see, appreciate and understand
what they mean. Politically correct? Definitely not!

As I've said before time will tell on several things we're discussed.
We will see if the museum addition begins on schedule or, if as
Rob says, it is on hold. We will see what becomes of certain rare
types of aircraft to be recovered such as the Jaluit TBDs and
others. We will see what becomes of the stored Lake Birds. As
stated previously the TBF-1 recently left to a new home. Also,
not long ago an F-4 were to Baton Rouge to be displayed at a
VFW (I believe).

All I can say about Raz is that he is at least as passionate about
preserving our history as any of us involved in this discussion. I
can tell you that I have not agreed with every decision he has
ever made. But I can also tell you that he has done an enormous
amount of good in preserving aviation history. Although I am
definitely outnumbered here I will make this challenge to each
of you who have so vehemently disagreed with me. Come down
to NMNA, spend at least a day there, feel the history, and listen
to the ghosts. See what Raz has put together (with a lot of help).
When you leave I'll bet you feel less antagonistic toward him
that you do as you read this. And remember what I said about
an open mind early on is this thread.

Blue skies,
Owen

HI GUYS,IN REPLY TO MY PAST POST,BLACK SHADOW WAS SENT TO HAWAII FOR A TWO WEEK TRIP TO EVALUATE AND RECOVER THE AIRFRAMES IN THE DUMP AT BARBERS POINT NAS.THE HELICOPTER GUYS SAID THAT THEY WERE IN THE DUMP FOR ABOUT 45 MINUTES WHEN THEY RETURNED TO OPS, THE NAVYS RECOVERY CREW CALLED RAZ AND TOLD HIM IT WAS ALL BEYOND RESTORATION AND TO SCRAP IT ON SITE!!!THE DOD PUT A VERY SMALL ONE PARAGRAPH ADD IN THE BACK OF THE LOCAL NEWS PAPER OF A SEALED BID ON SEVERAL LOTS OF SCRAP ALUMINUM /AIRCRAFT RESIDUE TO BE SOLD AT BARBERS POINT.TOTALLY UNKNOWN TO THE WARBIRD COMMUNITY THE AUCTION TOOK PLACE WITH ALL BIDS BUT ONE GOING TO THE LOCAL SCRAP MAN THE ONE BID WAS WON BY BOB CARNEY A LOCAL A/C NUT LIKE THE REST OF US,WHOME WAS NOW THE PROUD OWNER OF A VERY RARE A25-A AND ALSO A RARE SB2C-1 BOB HAD THE A25 LOADED ON A TRUCK AND DELIVERED TO DILLINGHAM FEILD ON THE NORTH END OF THE ISLAND BY THE TIME THEY RETURNED THE SCRAP MAN HAD STOLEN THE SB2C-1 AND SHREADED IT IT ALSO!!!HE PAID $500.00 FOR BOTH A/C THE OTHERS WENT FOR MUCH LESS SHREADED AND SOLD TO JAPAN TO BE MADE INTO NEW HONDAS.WHY IF THE NAVY GIVES A HOOT ABOUT PRESERVATION ,RAISING MONEY FOR THE MUSEUM,AND IMPROVING THEIR IMAGE WITH THE PRIVATE SECTOR WHY WERENT THESE AIRFRAMES PUT UP FOR SALE ,ADVERTISED WORLD WIDE, AND THEN SOLD AT AUCTION?ARE THEY AFRAID THAT PAUL ALLEN WOULD BUY THEM ALL AND HIDE THEM AWAY?AT LEAST THEY WOULD STILL BE WITH US!! MAYBE ONE OF US WANNA BEES COULD HAVE GOT ONE AND TRIED OUR SKILLS AT MAKING HONEY OUT OF HORSE POOP(SEE WEB SITE OF SB2C PROJECT @WOTN.COM)MAYBE MONEY COULD BE SPENT BETTER SELLING OFF THESE LOST AND DERALECT AIRFRAMES TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR FOR RESTORATION/ PRESEVATION, PUT THAT MONEY INTO A FUND FOR SAY A RESTORED SB2C-1 FOR THE NAVY MUSEUM COMBINED WITH THE MONEY WAISTED IN THE CRAZY LEGAL HASSLES OVER ABANDONED AIRFRAMES THAT WOULD BE A WIN WIN SITUATION FOR ALL!!!WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE FANTASTIC JOB THAT GENRAL METCALF HAS DONE FOR THE U.S.AIR FORCE MUSEUM!!! YOU HAVE GREAT PRAISE FOR CAPTIAN BOB AND THE IMPROVEMENTS MADE BY HIM BUT IN COMPAIRISON HE DOESNT HOLD A CANDLE TO THE IMPROVEMENTS AT THE A.F. MUSEUM.THEY HAVE A MUCH MORE USER FRIENDLY POLICY WHICH PUTS THEM IN A MUCH BETTER POSITION TO FIND,PURCHASE,OR TRADE FOR RARE ITEMS TO IMPROVE THERE ALREADY WORLD CLASS ESTABLISHMENT!!ON THE OTHER HAND WE ALL FEEL THAT THE NAVAL MUSEUM IS THE TERROISTS OF THE WARBIRD COMMUNITY WITH THERE POLICY OF YOU FIND AND RECOVER IT AND WE JAIL YOU AND STEAL IT TACTICS. NO WONDER THEIR MUSEUM IS ONLY A SPEC COMPAIRED TO THE FORESIGHTEDNESS OF THE U.S.A.F.!!!MR OWEN HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE U.S.A.F. MUSEUM?DOES IT SEEM ANY MORE IMPRESSIVE THAN THE NAVYS MUSEUM? MAYBE YOU CAN TALK TO UNCLE BOB AND GET HIM UP TO SPEED ON SOME FANTASIC WAYS TO REALLY IMPROVE HIS KINGDOM HE CAN CALL GENERAL METCALF AND START TAKING NOTES!!MAYBE HE WILL GIVE HIM MY PHONE NUMBER AND WE CAN MAKE A DEAL ON A TOTALLY RESTORED SB2C-1 FOR THE NAVAL MUSEUM!!!THANKS MIKE

no love here either with my dealings.... rock on mike

All right boys here we go.....

Let me begin by agreeing with Rob in admiring Mike Rawson's SB2C work. I'd love to see one of your
remaining Helldivers at NMNA, but that's not up to me.
I am curious...would you make some sort of trade with
them?

The story of what took place at Barbers' Point made me
shudder. Of course I have no first hand knowledge of
what took place but it does sound like Raz put too much
faith in Roy Stafford of Black Shadow. I suspect there's
more to it.

Yes indeed I have been to the USAFM at Wright-Patt. It
is indeed a fine facility. But to say that NMNA is a spec
compared to USAFM is inaccurate. I looked at both web
sites and gathered a few figures. To my knowledge they
are currently accurate. UASFM's site lists 440,000 square
feet and an annual attendence of 1.2 million. NMNA lists
291,000 square feet and just under one million folks a
year. NMNA's Phase IV addition slated to break ground
this fall will add 300,000 square feet. Certainly USAFM
is larger and has more visitors. But is NMNA a spec?
HARDLY! If you do the math on how large NMNA will soon
be once the addition (that Rob says is on hold) is complete
I'd say USAFM better start drawing blueprints.

Let's not forget the the ENTIRE USAF is about flying airplanes
and missles. Naval Aviation is only one segment of our Navy. There is also the surface Navy and the submariners.
The size of a facility, how many planes they can restore and
display, how much memorabilia they can display and so on
all swings on money. There are a whole lot more USAF
guys to be interested in, donate to, and support their museum than there are navy. Heck I read somewhere
that the WWII 8th Air Force was, at its's height, bigger than
all of Naval Aviation at the the time. The point is that there
are a lot more pockets to donate to USAFM than NMNA.
As I said in a previous post I saw an article a few years back
listing the budget figures for NASM, USAFM, and NMNA. I do
not recall the exact figures and don't know what they are
today but NMNA's dollars were a whole lot less. I think they
do pretty well with the resources at their disposal.

So yes Mike, I was impressed with USAFM. It's hard not to be awed by things like a B-36 and a B-52. The sheer size
of the place is humbling. I also like the fact that they have
a great deal of personal memorabilia on display. I was
particularly impressed with the painted A-2 jackets and the
Doolittle Raider display material. But NMNA a spec by
comparision??? Come on Mike, your prejudice against
them is showing.

Blue skies,
Owen

HI OWEN,DONT GET ME WRONG I THINK THAT THE NAVY MUSEUM IS FANTASTIC !!! I GREW UP BUILDING THE MONOGRAM 48TH SCALE F6F,TBF,F4F,F4U,SB2C,SBD,AND KINGFISHER!!WW2 NAVY A/C ARE BY FAR MY FAVORITE,SO ITS NOT A BEEF WITH THE NAVY OR THE MUSEUM ITS WITH THEIR MINDLESS POLICY OF PRESERVATION IF YOU ARE CLOSE TO RAZ MAYBE YOU COULD TAKE OFF HIS ROSE COLORED GLASSES OR IS IT A WELDING HELMET AND ENLIGHTEN HIM ON THE POSSIBILITYS OF WHAT REALLY COULD HAPPEN IF HE WOULD UNTIE OUR HANDS AND ALLOW THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO RECOVER THE MANY STILL HIDDEN WARBIRDS THAT ARE JUST TURNING INTO DUST!!!NOT ONLY NAVY STUFF BUT ALL THE HISTORIC AIRFRAMES STILL IN THE JUNGLES,IN LAKES,BURIED UNDER GROUND,ECT.SOME FEEL THEY SHOULD BE LEFT WERE THEY FELL BUT HOW MUCH LONGER WILL THERE BE ANYTHING THERE MORE THAN A PILE OF WHITE DUST!TRUST ME ALMOST ANY A/C CAN BE RESTORED TO DISPLAY CONDITION AND PRESERVED FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS IF WE ACT NOW IF WE CONTINUE TO LEAVE THEM OUT IN THE HARSH CONDITIONS THAT MANY OF THEM ARE IN THEY WILL BE GONE FOREVER!!IT TAKES LOTS OF MONEY BUT EVEN WAY MORE HARD WORK TO RESTORE ANY OF THESE A/CS THATS WHY THEY CAN FETCH SUCH HIGH PRICES. THE FOLKS THAT RESTORE THESE A/C DO IT OUT OF A LOVE FOR AVIATION,AS FAR AS THE FINANCIAL GAINS YOU WOULD MAKE MORE MONEY WORKING AT THE CAR WASH!!! LONG HOURS AND DETERMINATION CAN HAVE AMAIZING RESULTS AND THE REWARDS OF SEEING A A/C THAT WAS TOTAL TRASH RETURNED TO LIKE NEW CONDITION CAN BE SHARED BY ALL FOR GENERATIONS TO COME,LEAVING THEM ROT BY SUPPORTING THESE POLICYS OF DESTRUCTION IS CRIMINAL IT CAN ONLY BENIFIT THE JUNKMAN, BARBERS POINT WAS EVIDENTS OF THAT!!A WRECKED F4U,F6F ,SB2C,IN THE RIGHT HANDS CAN BENIFIT THE MANY MUSEUMS THAT WOULD DIE TO HAVE ONE,IN THE WRONG HANDS IT TURNS INTO A INGOT!!THE CHOICE IS YOURS MY FRIENDS CHANGE THIS POLICY NOW OR GET USE TO SEEING NAVAL HISTORY IN ONLY PHOTOS ITS YOU THAT CAN MAKE A DIFERENCE! THANKS MIKE

Owen,

I guess I'd have to ditto Mike's last comments. And just think, if you could sway Raz's policies you would be immortalized by everyone on this website!

On a humorous note, I have one more change you could help me implement at NMNA. In 2000 my family visited Dayton. In 2001 we found ourselves at Pensacola. My realtively non-aviation-oriented spouse made the comment about NMNA, "Dan, where are the ropes? I thought you said it was bad for the airplanes if people left fingerprints all over them?"
"Well, yes dear, that's true," I replied, "but you see, the Navy just does things differently than the Air Farce does."
Her response: "I really think they should use ropes..."

So, for my wife, if you could take care of the rope thing I would really be appreciative.

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Well Mike I must say that when you described NMNA as a "speck"
compared to USAFM I did interpret that as a slam. The comment
about "taking notes" from Gen. Metcalf served well to reinforce
that impression. If you now say that "the navy museum is fan-
tastic" that sheds a different, if somewhat confusing, light on
things.

But on a more positive note I grew up building those same Mon-
ogram models. I have an appreciation of history, the men who
made it, and the machines in which they made it as does every-
one else on this board.

I understand that you vehemently disagree with USN policy on
wreck recovery. I THINK we agree that recovered aircraft, such
as the Lake Birds in Pensacola, are the Navy's to do with as they
choose. I THINK your main area of concern is the still unrecovered
birds in Lake Michigan, off Fl, Jaluit, etc. and the crash sites on
land.

I still don't believe that the policy originates in Pensacola. I
believe it is from NHC in DC. I assure everyone I will never be
able to change the policy. I am a nobody guy who sells auto
parts in Mobile, AL and just happens to love the museum and
everything in it. Over the years I have come to appreciate what
a small group of dedicated folks have accomplished in Pensacola.

If you ever want to change the way the navy looks at things you
are going to have to make it worth their while. Any trade I have
been involved with in my collecting efforts is driven by what I
have that the other guy wants. I have to make it attractive to
him. With that in mind bashing the management structure at
the museum repeatedly, trying to have Congress investigate
them after the FBI, NCIS, US Attourney's office, the FDLE, and
probably the Girl Scouts already investigated and found nothing
wrong is probably counterproductive. Further, a lot of the harsh
words written in this thread are not going to get you a lot of
appointments to discuss the matter.If you come up with something
they really want (like a TBD, Helldiver, Sparrowhawk, or a Buffalo), approach them in a civil manner I'll bet you can get a dialogue.

Mike, if I remember from an article I read on your project you had
enough parts and pieces for about two and a half Helldivers. Is
this correct? If so I imagine you have enough now for one more
and some spare parts. Would you want to sell/trade it to NMNA
like it is, or finish it first, or would you be interested?

Before I go further I want to echo Rob's comment about how great
it is to live in a country where we can disagree without worrying
about the poilce knocking on the door.

I must address Dan's comments about the ropes. To me this is one of the great distinctions between NMNA and other museums.
You can walk up and touch history (oops, I mean the planes) at
NMNA. I can put my hands on a Wildcat and feel just a little bit
closer to my late father. I can put my hand on a Dauntless and
hear Dick Best and Ed Kroger tell me about diving on the Akagi
and the Hiryu at Midway. I can put my hands on that P-40 that
nobody likes and hear R T Smith and Ed Rector tell me about
now not to turn with a Japanese. Yes. it's emotional for me. Being able
to touch those birds is a special thing about Pensacola. Yes,
there is occasional damage to a faric covered area but there is
a team of guys who stay after that vigorously. Yes there are
fingerprints but there are folks with big dust mops going over
their surfaces often.

Blue skies,
Owen